Committee of the Whole Meeting 05/11/2026
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHLEhlsNWCg
Automatic captions; not audio-verified.

[0:17] Emily, is it just this? No, there's one more.

[5:51] under this committee of the whole for the city of Highland Park City Council May 11th, 2026. Will the clerk please call the role?

[5:57] Council member Centur present.

[5:59] Council member Breman here.

[6:00] Council member Ross here. Council member Tapia.

[6:04] Council member Lower here.

[6:05] Council member Bloomberg here.

[6:07] Mayor Rory [snorts] here. We have a quorum. Any objections to council member Tapia joining us from Port of [clears throat] Viarda.

[6:16] As long as sister city, right? Say hello to our sister city for us, Council Member Tapia. Um, okay.

[6:26] Our first item this evening is a discussion regarding the permanent place of remembrance and initial design

[6:34] concepts. I ask before we begin that we take a moment of silence.

[6:50] Thank you.

[6:53] Great. Thank you, mayor. Good evening, everyone. Um so included in the agenda is a staff report as it pertains to uh

[7:02] designing for the permanent place of remembrance. Um pleased to introduce our team from S SWA and all together that are going to lead the presentation this

[7:10] evening. Um we have about an hour set aside for um the presentation and we are looking for um the council's highlevel

[7:19] feedback as it pertains to the design concepts. Um, as you know, certainly we've been um meeting as a working group

[7:27] um to um work with the consultants in planning for a permanent place of remembrance at both the Rose Garden as

[7:34] well as Port Clinton. Um the working group um is led by Mayor Rotary, Council Member Bloomberg is on that group. Um we

[7:41] have staff representatives and I do want to recognize um the work of Emily Taub, assistant city manager. uh Amanda Bennett, communications manager, Jasmine

[7:50] Alejandro, um who's our resiliency specialist, um and uh and then the park district, and Representative Gabby from

[7:58] Joselyn um also serves on the working group. Every working group meeting um includes minutes and then we've been

[8:05] sharing uh the minutes as well as any supplemental information from those working group meetings with the full city council just to make sure that

[8:13] everyone is aligned in terms of what actions we've done and what is forthcoming. So this evening um we are

[8:20] presenting uh design concepts that were presented at the working group public meeting last Thursday. Um these design

[8:26] concepts are also on our website. Um and then at this stage and we've already started to continue with significant

[8:34] public engagement. Um so very important um throughout this entire process is feedback from the next of kin from

[8:42] victims and from the general public both that are in Highland Park as well as outside of Highland Park. Um so at this time pleased to introduce our consultant

[8:51] team who will take us through this presentation. Thank you. I appreciate it.

[8:55] Hi, I'm Marissa Schultz. I'm a principal with all together and we are leading the engagement in communications uh for this project and we have a lot to cover

[9:04] tonight. So have a cup of coffee and because of that we want to present all of the concepts and get your feedback.

[9:11] I'm going to go pretty quickly through uh what we have heard to date and how that has informed the concepts. You'll

[9:18] find a much more robust public engagement summary in your packet [clears throat] and as well as online.

[9:26] So as you know we have broken up the the community and stakeholders into three different tiers. That first tier tier

[9:34] one being next of kin present and injured first responders and healthcare workers. The second tier present not

[9:42] injured parade participants community leadership resource partners businesses volunteers first responders.

[9:49] And then tier three is the general community. So, as I talk about feedback, I want you to consider these tiers. Um, and we've given a lot of weight um and

[9:58] opportunities to participate to all tiers, but especially tier one and to tier 2. What does that look like? So, we

[10:05] have been at this uh for a few months now. In February, we kicked off one-on-one conversations with tier one.

[10:13] We also had a presentation committee of the whole, a listening session, small group sessions with tier one and two

[10:20] where we understood priorities, higher level themes, what they wanted the community to experience, what was

[10:27] important to them when people were visiting this place of remembrance. Went in front of the historic preservation commission for initial uh consideration.

[10:37] And then we launched a a tier one and two survey that was offered in both English and Spanish and then a broader

[10:45] community survey um that your amazing communications team helped to market out to the public. We then had a community

[10:52] ideation workshop in April and all of that resulted in quite a bit of input.

[10:58] So for the top tier, that tier one survey respondents, we had 22, but we also had a number of tier one and tier 2 participate in those listening sessions.

[11:08] And we did that as an opportunity to be able to feel safe and comfortable and participate more in one-on-one or small

[11:16] group format. There were 55 people who participated in those listening sessions and participated in the workshop. So we

[11:23] had about 180 different voices that were participating in some form or fashion.

[11:28] And here's what we heard. Again, I'm going to go through these quickly, but please, if you have any questions at the end of this, and feel free to ask me.

[11:36] Six themes really bubble to the top of all of the the conversations that we had. And these themes inform the design

[11:44] concepts that SWA is going to work with you or talk you through tonight. The first being to name the seven whose

[11:51] lives were taken and acknowledge all who were harmed. This was the most universally held position across all engagement. So that names of those whose

[11:59] lives were taken should appear in the design and given prominence and clearly acknowledged.

[12:07] The second is to honor the people and communities that showed up. Participants across all groups described Highland

[12:14] Park as a community that sheltered and cared for people who were injured, organized mutual aid, and came together to provide support. And really this the

[12:24] story of ordinary people doing extraordinary things and that was named as one of the very important stories

[12:31] that needed to come through in the design and the variance elements this place of remembrance. Also this idea of

[12:38] heroism across first responders, healthcare workers, institutions, the city and staff and communities was also

[12:47] named as something that should be reflected in the design.

[12:51] Your community wants us to tell the story of the full community, not only what happened that day and its impact.

[12:58] What we heard a lot of when we asked participants what they hoped future generations would understand when they

[13:05] were visiting the place of remembrance, their answers were pretty fairly consistent, that the community really cares deeply for one another. They did

[13:14] long before this tragedy and continue to do so well into the future. And several participants framed resilience as a

[13:22] statement around community and relationships, right? That rose above even the tragedy.

[13:29] Another theme was to remember that we need to design for every season. We fortunately or unfortunately live in a

[13:37] cold weather climate and things are pretty barren during the winter. And so the community wanted life and the

[13:45] experience of life existing throughout all of the seasons. So Ben is going to talk you through that as we go through

[13:51] each of these concepts to hold space for cultural diversity with intention. The majority of those

[14:00] lives, as you know, who were taken were Latino and or Jewish. And so multiple participants asked that the design honor those specific communities, not as an

[14:09] afterthought, but something that is very intentionally designed around. And we heard lots of ideas around that.

[14:15] Concrete ideas like, you know, certain flowers that were culturally significant in the Mexican community, butterflies and hummingbirds as symbols of

[14:23] transformation and a place for pilgrimage as is Jewish tradition. Also this idea of light.

[14:32] And finally, letting people choose when and whether to engage. This was expressed consistently and deeply felt that it was needed, especially as we

[14:41] think about the two different sites for the place of remembrance that there was a lot of trauma that was experienced that day long after in this community.

[14:51] And so people should be able to have the experience to decide how, when, and how they interact with the sites.

[15:00] So very quickly I'm going to go through some of the sight specific themes that we heard. Um and both were different.

[15:07] When we asked the community around what the place should feel like for the rose garden, these words came to the top.

[15:15] Natural, private, serene, more of a respit.

[15:19] We heard that the place should include acknowledgement of the seven lives taken and those injured. very comfortable seating, being allowed to and encouraged

[15:29] to meander throughout the site, and being able to sit with your thoughts and process your thoughts. Living plantings

[15:36] with year-round color, a water feature was also discussed and desired by the community, although it was noted those

[15:44] can be pretty expensive and hard to maintain. So, we've thought through that. And then clear sight lines throughout because visibility supports

[15:51] safety and it's an agency for trauma survivors.

[15:55] Also, full ADA accessibility above and beyond, making sure that anyone of any ability can be able to access the site and move throughout [clears throat] it.

[16:05] For Port Clinton Plaza, the words that we heard were dynamic, layered, vibrant, welcoming, resilient.

[16:13] The space we heard should acknowledge that the shooting happened here, honoring the lives taken while also affirming the lives that continue. We

[16:21] also heard that this is a very everyday vibrant active space for the community.

[16:25] It's where events are held. And so this idea of introducing plants and natural elements to kind of soften more of the

[16:33] brick heavy plaza was important as well as thinking about that idea of choosing when and how to participate, especially

[16:42] because there are so many businesses and families that are using the plaza every day.

[16:49] We also asked about the connections between the sites. Do we want an actual literal path connecting the two? And

[16:56] what we heard the community say is what we would prefer are actual symbolism that represent both of the sites,

[17:04] elements that continue through either with design or pieces at different scales so that the two feel related but

[17:11] don't necessarily need to be physically connected.

[17:16] And finally, we showed mood board towards boards. It's really hard for the community, I think, to think through design and what exactly they want to

[17:23] see. And so, we gave them some options to weigh in around different elements and themes for the concepts. The first

[17:31] was movement directions. So you see here we go from more informal to formal and the community both the tier one tier 2

[17:39] workshop and those listening discussions really led towards option two which are more curved paths spirals more flowing

[17:46] layout um plantings that move a visitor through the sense of place and no large solid walls for material directions kind

[17:54] of came more to that soft natural and defined options. So that to us signals more organic elements that age

[18:02] gracefully and signal care, [clears throat] accessibility as the primary driver when we're selecting materials, making sure that people can

[18:08] use and access the site and seasonal plant material for color directions. Uh

[18:16] the community was a bit more split. I think more veered towards option two where there are pieces of color, right?

[18:23] not too vibrant. Um, but there are opportunities for pops of color that feel seasonal and feel right.

[18:32] So, that could be a more of a naturalistic palette that include some vibrant colors or even thinking about

[18:39] how we might be able to introduce uh colors through through a kaleidoscope or reflected light.

[18:47] And then night present directions. And what was interesting about this, right, one is much more of that softer ambient lighting to the third being much more present, dynamic and sculptural.

[18:58] We heard that the community wanted to see lighting in two different ways in both of the sites. For the Rose Garden

[19:07] at night, it's softer and more atmospheric. And I think that that points back to that more of that serene, calmer experience. And for Port Clinton

[19:15] at night, we can get a little bit more creative and bolder and expressive and experiential use of light. You already have light there for the holiday program

[19:24] and throughout the year. And so being able to add to that as an element was something the community was interested in

[19:31] in natural directions, right? This more organic and free form based on more formal um and cultivated. the community

[19:40] again lean more towards that organic and flowing um but not too wild, right?

[19:46] Showing care and intent in a lot of the vegetation and the way that it's maintained.

[19:52] And then when we think about memory, how do we want to honor those lives who were taken, those lives that were injured and

[19:59] the community as a whole? There was a bit of a split in terms of more ambient, so ambient, so you know, you're

[20:07] experiencing it in a bit of a more softer way to more dynamic or sculptural.

[20:13] And so we look at leaning more towards the second where we keep the seven um acknowledge the names of the seven

[20:22] victims whose lives were taken. keep this idea of the number seven as a recurring motive, motif, and abstract elements as an alternative to literal memorial forms.

[20:33] So, with that, I want you to think about all of those themes and everything I just walked you through. I'm going to turn it over to Ben, and he's got three

[20:41] concepts that you also have printed in front of you. Thanks, Maresa. Yeah, thank you all.

[20:51] Does this control the slide deck? Yes.

[21:00] There was a a piece that was on slide 16 that wasn't read but out loud but about

[21:10] honoring what's already in the rose garden as well.

[21:13] That wasn't said out loud. So, I'm saying that was on.

[21:18] Yeah, thank you. We're trying to go quickly because we know there's uh more on the agenda. So, um this presentation

[21:28] begins with existing conditions analysis. I'm going to sort of acknowledge what we looked at but not really go into depth on it. Um we can

[21:36] come back to that as sort of an appendex if there's questions about existing conditions. But in the interest of time, I'm going to really focus on the design

[21:44] concepts. Um thank you Marica for walking us through the engagement. It's really helpful precursor to this.

[21:52] So um where are we in the process? Um we're sort of starting phase two engagement uh with the unveiling of these concept

[22:01] designs. Um and we're moving towards uh council meeting on June 8th where we're hoping to have sort of a single

[22:09] refined concept at that point for you all to look at. Um, so things are moving quickly. Things have been moving quickly. We've been doing quite a lot in

[22:18] the last few weeks. And then, um, moving forward, we're looking at, uh, historic preservation commission in late June.

[22:25] And then moving into design, development, construction documentation in summer and fall, um, with bidding and construction in 2027.

[22:33] So, as Gita mentioned, we're really hoping for highlevel feedback. You know, we've been working on these schemes for about three weeks, so we have not had

[22:42] time to get into a great level of detail. I think ideas about detail are

[22:48] welcome, but just want to preface what you're looking at with, you know, the the reality that we've been looking at

[22:56] these at kind of a a site conceptual level at this point. Um, and so feedback in that area is is very productive for us at this point.

[23:06] So, existing conditions. Um, as I said, I'm just going to kind of breeze through this. We looked at context and screening for the site. Um, we looked at current and existing site access.

[23:18] We looked at the existing trees based on the arborist report provided by the city of Highland Park. Um, and where sort of

[23:25] the most kind of valuable trees are versus where there are trees that are,

[23:32] you know, maybe less valuable. The area, I will pause on this for a moment, the area highlighted in orange, um, that's

[23:39] where we see probably the most trees being removed to kind of create space for the place of remembrance. But the

[23:46] vast majority of trees in that area are either invasive or are, you know, very young, not mature trees. So, this is not

[23:55] going to have a high impact on the canopy on the site. We're doing a lot of work with these concepts to preserve

[24:02] existing mature um native and well adapted tree canopy [clears throat] that's not part of the kind of invasive canopy

[24:11] historic resources. Um very appreciative to all the work that the staff with the historic preservation team or his uh the

[24:19] historic preservation commission has done to kind of connect us with resources about the history of the site.

[24:25] And so that's obviously a big piece of what we've taken into consideration in our design here.

[24:32] So the preliminary concept designs we have three different approaches. And um

[24:38] you know in thinking about this we took um great care to

[24:46] think of this as a place. You made a conscious decision to call this a place of remembrance not a memorial. And so what is a place? a place is something

[24:54] that we have imbued with meaning. Um it's not just space, it's not just designed objects, it's something that

[25:02] people interact with and and [clears throat] bring things to. So our our approach is grounded in this knowledge and our experience thus far

[25:10] far working with your community that people really care here. Um that it's a community with active particip participation

[25:17] and our hope is that the place of remembrance will not be just a static marker of what was lost here. But it's something that will be grown into over

[25:26] time um through the actions of your community through the particip participation of your community. That's a word that is eluding me uh today.

[25:38] Um we also were very much grounded in in these uh core concepts that Marissa already went through. Naming the seven,

[25:45] acknowledging all those who were harmed, honoring the people in the community, communities that showed up, telling the full story of the community, not only

[25:54] what happened, designing for remembrance in every season, and letting people choose when and whether to engage.

[26:04] So, with that, we had three kind of overarching ideas um for beginning with the the rose garden site. We'll look

[26:12] through the three rose garden concepts and then move over to Port Clinton. Um the first woven together uh takes the um

[26:22] ideas that I mentioned in the previous two slides and honors the seven individuals by allowing for intimate gatherings of and diverse approaches to

[26:31] honoring the deceased. There's seven individual spaces and they're woven together um by the grounding of nature,

[26:38] water, and the act of walking. The second, mending lines, uh, features gentle arcs that act as story lines, um,

[26:47] acknowledging the trauma experienced by Highland Park, but also the resilience that it revealed, and it gives visitors the opportunity to reflect on that

[26:55] ongoing story through intentional action. The third concept features seven sculptural rose petals which are set

[27:03] into a naturalistic field in a simple formal frame that pay homage to the beauty of Highland Park and the surrounding geography. And visitors are

[27:12] rewarded in this concept by showing up time and time again.

[27:17] So in greater detail, here are the three concept plans side by side. We'll begin with the first woven together into a walkthrough of the site.

[27:31] So this image gives kind of an overview of what the kind of core of the space would feel like. Um this naturalistic garden is framed by seven remembrance

[27:40] niches and is tied together again with a gently meandering path and a through line of uh water that connects through the space.

[27:50] You can see that the primary kind of intervention of the place of remembrance is [clears throat] sort of the back twothirds of the site, but we've

[27:59] provided a prominent accessible path entering the site from St. John's. We

[28:05] also looked at having um potentially an accessible route connecting to the city hall frontage, knowing that the closest

[28:13] public parking lot is uh on the other side of city hall on Hazel. Um

[28:20] the sort of first moment you experience at the place of remembrance is a entry sign within a grove of aspen with lush

[28:30] understory planting. This acts as kind of a pallet cleanse or something to sort of act as a threshold between the city outside of the place of remembrance and

[28:39] the space within. You move into a central circle. We're calling it a council ring in honor of Jens Jensen.

[28:47] has the same dimensions as the existing central rose garden feature. Um, this area contains several walls that would

[28:55] tell story about the experience of the community, would honor first responders.

[29:01] It would acknowledge those who were injured and it features circular seating for people to gather. This space is really about kind of embracing

[29:09] community. You will also see a water feature that's uh in the space of the original water feature in the rose

[29:16] garden um that runs through the site that originates in this space.

[29:22] From there, visitors can walk into a quieter reflection garden um that is really dedicated to the seven individuals lost. So, this space

[29:31] features two paths. one that meanders more tightly back and forth across the water feature and another that sort of

[29:38] spreads out back and forth between two formal allays of trees. Within those trees are seven niches. Um and you'll

[29:46] see images of what those spaces feel like. Um but each of those would be dedicated to one of the individuals

[29:52] lost. And eventually visitors um come to a reflection niche at the back of the space where the water feature ends. So

[30:00] you cross over this water feature seven times. Um and each time you do you uh

[30:06] head into a new reflection niche. The kind of garden texture in the center is um you know would be this sort of

[30:16] naturalistic planting um not wild but curated um and then framed again by a more formal setting of trees.

[30:26] You can see diagrams studying the circulation and where the specific programmatic elements are within the space. I won't spend too much time on

[30:34] these. Um get to the walk through. So this is sort of an overview looking from St. John's. You can see how the place of

[30:42] remembrance fits within the existing context. We've uh again done a lot of

[30:49] work to make sure that the existing mature oak trees at the front of the site will not be impacted by uh any of these design interventions.

[31:01] This is that threshold space, this kind of entry grove. Um so lush understory planting aspen trees which um we chose

[31:10] specifically because they are appropriate for a site like this kind of in a riparian area but also because they

[31:17] are very resilient trees that grow in communities. So there's some symbolism there too.

[31:24] Moving into the council ring space, you can see walls featuring narrative and text. um a circular seating element and

[31:33] the water feature in the center that runs through the space. And you can see how the planting which kind of weaves in and out um makes it so there's not a

[31:42] really like confrontational view between one end of the space and the other that helps create some sort of privacy within the space.

[31:52] the rose garden itself. We have sort of taken away the um existing footpaths uh

[32:00] while maintaining a connection between an informal connection between city hall and the library site. And what we

[32:07] imagine here is a sort of wildflower meadow that might feature um wild roses that would hold up better to deer

[32:14] pressure. And you know the existing roses we're very conscious that for much of the year to keep them happy they have to be pruned and look like kind of

[32:23] thorny sticks which is visually perhaps not appropriate for a setting like this. Um it's a fairly stark visual element.

[32:32] We do want to keep a number of the existing U hedges within the space.

[32:36] Those are really um you know great old hedge species that sort of allude to the structure that previously existed in the

[32:44] rose garden. And there's also symbolism there in that u hedges are uh believed to be sort of symbols of eternity or uh

[32:53] protectors of the deceased. So it creates this um nice symbolism in that threshold as well

[33:01] within the remembrance niches. So these are the spaces where the individual victims are named. Um there's sort of a sculptural bench element scaled for a

[33:10] small group or a family to gather together and honor their loved one. And a uh sort of sculptural stone element

[33:18] that would have a reflective surface or perhaps be able to hold water that would also reflect the sky above that would

[33:25] have the name of the victim inscribed in it. And this is sort of an open-ended um uh piece that you know people can leave flowers on, they can leave candles on.

[33:36] It sort of suggests a table that you gather around. Um it invites smaller groups to be in community with one

[33:44] another honoring uh this person that they lost.

[33:49] And then finally, the the uh reflection niche at the back of the space looking out across. Um, this is slightly bigger

[33:57] than the niches for the seven individuals. Um, and it's kind of a moment to just pause, feel the impact of the water kind of running towards you.

[34:07] Um, and then set set back off through the space as you head back towards the, uh, council ring in the middle.

[34:18] Materials um, very high level. Uh this this is something that we'll be getting into much more as we develop the

[34:24] designs, but limestone rock, calccarious brick which features lime. So it relates to the stone itself, thermally modified

[34:32] wood, etched concrete for um uh you know, primary accessible paths. um

[34:40] something with some amount of aggregate exposed so it feels more natural without um kind of having the rougher surface of of stone pavers.

[34:52] um ensuring that the basin of water features has you know stone or intentional surfacing within it so that

[34:59] in the winter when water is not running it feels uh still like it has a presence like it's still um intentional and not

[35:07] just dormant and then split polished stone again for these memorial features

[35:14] the table elements within the niches plant material also very high level at this point But we've looked at um

[35:23] perhaps an Armstrong gold maple um for the vertical trees framing the garden, quaking aspen, again preserving the U

[35:32] within the space, perennial grasses and flowers, and specifically focusing on butterfly attractors which may have um

[35:38] you know, cultural meaning for uh the uh Latino families impacted by the the tragedy.

[35:48] The second concept, mending lines. Um, so this is a more flowing, less formal garden, sort of a meditative process that follows these um three arcs.

[36:01] Uh, and you can see in this this design, the um place of remembrance comes more prominently all the way out to St.

[36:10] John's have but uh the informality of it makes it feel sort of like a garden at

[36:17] that moment rather than you know a formal memorial space. Um the first arc is really about welcome. It's about sort

[36:25] of starting to tell the story of what happened. Um and then that pivots into a

[36:32] second arc that again finds its way into uh a circular space preserving the dimension of the existing rose garden um

[36:41] central area and um similar program imagined for for that acknowledging kind

[36:49] of the community, the resilience of this community, telling the story of how first responders and citizens within the

[36:57] community showed up telling the story of how this impacted people who were injured and continue to live with that.

[37:04] Um you can see we also keep some of the U topiary uh aligned with city hall here. Um, from

[37:11] that space there is what we call the reflection arc. And the idea is that you can take a stone from the existing um,

[37:19] ring that's used as a rock garden within the rose garden and carry that to a reflecting pool at the back of the space. Um, this is sort of an act of

[37:28] pilgrimage. So again, sort of trying to um take uh inspiration from the cultures

[37:35] that were impacted by this tragedy. Um both in the Jewish faith, carrying a stone is very important, but also in the

[37:43] Catholic tradition um taking a pilgrimage is is very important. So creating an intentional action for

[37:50] visitors to participate in that acts as sort of a grounding moment in in meditation.

[37:57] Uh again, diagrams. I will not spend too long on these, but we've explored the broader circulation. This site's a little bit looser with these um you

[38:06] know, clear directives of where you're going, but with kind of a space floating around that.

[38:13] So, from St. John's Avenue, um this would be sort of the welcome area here.

[38:18] Um, you'll see throughout the space we're using natural stone as kind of informal seating and then more formalized seating that uses wood as a

[38:26] as a more kind of uh comforting material um in in the circular spaces.

[38:37] We also uh took care to leave some of the existing lawn picnic ground open so that families can gather um and honor

[38:45] their loved ones in a uh way that feels appropriate for them.

[38:53] The council ring space. So in this this concept, the circular bench um is not centered in the space. It's all the way

[39:00] around the outside of the space. But again, we have walls that would have narrative text within the space. And you can see we've left the circular

[39:08] [clears throat] ring with stones in the middle would invite visitors to take a stone and carry it further into the

[39:16] space to the pool. At the end from city hall, um you can see again we've left some of the u hedges to

[39:24] preserve that visual structure of the rose garden. And we intentionally kept the viewshed open here um between these

[39:31] important civic spaces of city hall um this kind of community oriented space

[39:39] within the place of remembrance and the library beyond. We felt that keeping that sighteline open was um important symbolism.

[39:49] This is the reflection arc. Um, so if you imagine you're you're carrying a stone with you at this point, um, and

[39:56] kind of really focused on the seven victims and the reflecting pool at the end of

[40:05] the space where we would have the names of the victims inscribed around the outside. And uh, we imagine that seven

[40:13] stones, they would be nicer looking stones than than what we pulled from our rendering software. um apologize for

[40:19] that. But um seven sort of sculptural stones that emerge out of the water. Um the stones themselves do not have names

[40:27] of the victims. They'd be sort of abstracted in that sense, but the number would be there symbolically. And the idea here is that you could drop a stone in this pool. You would see the ripples

[40:36] move outward and that kind of carries through the paving as well. Um so sort of encouraging people to reflect deeply

[40:45] through uh kind of an intentional action.

[40:51] Similar material choices here. I think a different expression of stone within the water. Um a little bit more naturalistic potentially.

[41:01] And then with planting here, really leaning on the quaking aspen to create um a sense of almost moving through kind

[41:10] of a a river bed as you go through the space. Um and then crafting a lush understory within that. Out towards the

[41:16] sunnier end of the site by St. John, we'd again lean on perennial grasses and flowers, butterfly attractors.

[41:27] Okay, the final rose garden concept, petals. Um so in this this concept we have a simple meadow um that's host to

[41:35] seven sculptural objects um evocative of rose petals. The petals are in this concept the idea is that there they act

[41:43] as kind of a constant amidst um a field of change um the dynamics of seasonality around them. And you could see we've created [clears throat] this stone wall

[41:52] around the space and again a ring of formal trees. So we're sort of framing the movement of sea [cough] and and

[41:59] highlighting [clears throat] that with these seven sculptural objects that would be likely a metal element so they would kind of contrast against the

[42:07] texture of the um natural plant material.

[42:13] This is the [clears throat] simplest site plan in a way. Again just kind of a a loop also sort of in the shape of a

[42:20] rose petal um within the site. Um you could see we don't preserve the footprint of the rose garden in this

[42:28] concept. The idea was to um honor that history through kind of

[42:34] conceptual means with this uh introduction of a of sculpture um inspired by roses.

[42:43] Um so it's really sort of a two two entry paths through the uh lawn off St.

[42:49] John's. um [clears throat] a kind of overlook looking down into the field as you enter the place of remembrance and then a loop framed by this stone wall.

[43:01] The end of the space is a long wall looking back um west across the space uh and that would

[43:09] have the names of the victims. Uh similar to the rocks in the pool in the previous concept, the actual rose petal sculptures would not have victim's names

[43:17] on them. they would be sort of abstractly representative of the seven.

[43:23] And then the idea also with this wall surrounding the space is that there would be formal seating elements sort of built into it or just the ability to sit

[43:31] along the wall. Um so you can kind of walk as many times around this loop, choose a place to sit wherever you like.

[43:38] Um, and in regards to the historic uh sort of infrastructure of the site, you can see that this intervention does not go

[43:47] as far back into the site. So, we're able to keep some of the existing stone walls in the rear space

[43:54] [snorts]

[43:55] circulation. Again, fairly straightforward on this, but it's worth noting that we did explore potentially having an ADA connection to the staff

[44:04] lot. um knowing that there might be a number of people visiting this space who are wheelchair users or have mobility

[44:12] challenges and that's the most kind of direct route uh to any any parking nearby.

[44:23] So coming off of St. Sean's um very simple path again trying to avoid

[44:29] critical root zone for the oak trees and uh you know a hedge sort of

[44:36] screening the entry to create privacy and then a welcome wall which would host

[44:47] screen. Oh here we go. Um so this welcome wall would have text uh

[44:54] narrative text um about again first responders about those present and injured about the overall resilience of

[45:03] this community in face of this tragedy and that looks out over this this meadow.

[45:08] Um something to take in before you start strolling. Um you can see the rose petal objects kind of floating more close up

[45:17] here. Um the idea is that these would be above kind of just above where perennial plants will grow up to in summer. Um so

[45:26] they kind of keep on floating above that throughout the season, but you see that sort of planting change around it throughout the year. Um and so you're

[45:34] rewarded by kind of coming back again and again to this site.

[45:39] This is the end of the space where we have the long low wall with names of the victims inscribed and a more formalized

[45:46] seating element that looks back over the space.

[45:51] And we've also incorporated a low deck or bridge element that allows some of the landscape to kind of pass through,

[45:58] suggesting a connection to the creek and the broader geography beyond.

[46:06] Um and again just taking in that idea that this space is a loop. Um so visitors can take sort of as much time

[46:14] to walk around it as they need. It's not a there and back. Um it's it's a space you can kind of do a meditative walk around you know three four times however many you wish.

[46:28] similar uh material thoughts. Although this concept introduces the idea [clears throat] of formed metal, potentially an anodized steel, probably

[46:36] not something painted, but something where the color in the steel is actually coming from, you know, a more chemical

[46:43] process. Um won't chip and uh similar planting strategy to the first scheme we looked at.

[46:55] I'm gonna stop you.

[46:56] Yeah. Yeah. Let's do Rose Garden conversation first. Let's go.

[47:01] Um, and I just want to thank you, Ben, and thank Marica, and thank SWA and all together,

[47:09] uh, for the thought and analysis that's gone into all of these design ideas, the creativity,

[47:16] um, the efforts to really speak to the broad range of opinions

[47:24] that cover what we're trying to achieve here. And um you know the words reflection, remembrance and respin and

[47:31] solace seem to really have been sort of underscoring each of these designs as different as they are. So just wanted to

[47:40] share our appreciation. Um Tony and I have seen these previously in the uh

[47:47] place of remembrance working group meeting, but I just want to share a couple of thoughts that I shared at that meeting as well, my council colleagues.

[47:54] Um, and I I just have to say that I I lean towards one for a whole host of

[48:01] reasons. Um, I like the variety of reflection options. I like how it

[48:08] reflects the seven unique individuals lost. So, it's a group of seven people who were together, but seven

[48:16] individuals. Um, I like the aspen trees at the entrance because of the sound of

[48:23] the leaves, because of the beauty of the colors changing, because of the beauty of the trees in the wintertime. Um, and

[48:32] I don't know if you quite caught what Ben said, but they tend to sprout new trees around them. So, that's a kind of

[48:39] continuity of community and a continuation of community that the aspen trees bring. Um, so to me, you know, I

[48:48] just I feel like that really captures a lot of what we've been trying to achieve. And not to diminish all the work that went into two or three. Um,

[48:57] but to me, two seems almost too much heartscape. And, um, I'm just concerned.

[49:02] I think I appreciate the thought behind the rock movement. It seems almost a little too cute to me. And I worry that

[49:11] kids will be like, "Let's just go throw rocks," which is not at all respectful of what we're trying to achieve. Um, number three

[49:19] almost seems a little too barren. And as I mentioned at our last meeting, I worry about kids getting beaned on the nod and

[49:26] running through [clears throat] there with metal pedals. And I understand they might be higher or lower, but to me again that just feels um difficult in

[49:36] terms of what we're trying to achieve with the respectfulness and the semnity of why people are coming here. Uh but

[49:43] that's one person's opinion out of seven. Um Tony, I don't know if you want to weigh in and then I'll open it up to everybody else.

[49:50] I I don't have too much more to add. I I think I've shared similar responses to this. um the um use there was one

[50:00] suggestion at one point of being able to drop stones in the water and creating ripples and I I think there's a maintenance issue or a longevity issue

[50:10] with um somebody having to take the rocks out, put them back for further use. Um the Jewish uh symbolism of

[50:18] taking rocks and placing them is a very strong one. But for me, and I I didn't express this before, uh is more

[50:26] associated with a a place of remembrance or a um a grave site. It isn't

[50:34] necessarily so. Um there are circumstances where we do that. Um but it's more of a memorial rather than a a

[50:43] um uh this kind of concept that we're we're shooting for here. Um, I I like

[50:50] the entry uh ways to both one and two because it creates a separation from the outside world, a separation from St.

[51:01] John's that I think creates a sense of uh being able to contemplate whatever it is that you want to think about and and

[51:10] uh have a place of remembrance for the things that we've we've talked about. Uh my preference tends to be for the first one because [clears throat and cough]

[51:18] uh it allows for greater opportunity for uh separation of individuals who are visiting a lot of opportunity to walk. I

[51:27] think walking is um somewhat therapeutic and somewhat remember somewhat reminiscent of the circumstances when

[51:36] this terrible thing happened. Um and and I think that's an important element as well. Thanks.

[51:43] So, I have a couple of questions. Um, number one is really just about concept

[51:50] three, which I'm not crazy about, but I was wondering what is the size and the height of those roses? The petals?

[51:58] The petals. I'm sorry. Thank you.

[51:59] Yeah, I it's a good question. Um, in terms of height off the ground, we imagined maybe in the like 5 to 8 feet

[52:07] off the ground range. These would I mean the intention would be that this field would not have foot traffic through it

[52:14] because it would be grown with dense plant material, right? Um but um that

[52:21] height is based on what [clears throat] a lot of native perennials to this area will grow to at the peak of summer.

[52:30] Um so you could literally have prairie and then the rose petals kind of floating above that. Floating above that.

[52:36] Yeah. Um, in terms of the actual size, I think, you know, it's it's an irregular shape, but maybe two to three feet. Um,

[52:44] big enough to kind of I think we'd want to test that out a little bit further to just make sure that they how it withstands wind and

[52:52] I mean, I don't want someone getting bked or I mean that was my or ice form in it and whatever. So, yeah.

[52:59] So, I I I have some problems with that, but I just wanted to make sure I understood at least what it is. Um, additionally,

[53:06] well, I love the idea of the seven individual and that there it to me it's really about respit and quiet and I

[53:15] think it affords the families and those close to each individual um their own kind of privacy.

[53:22] So, I I really like the idea of one. The problem I have and and maybe it just hasn't been

[53:30] addressed yet with any of these is um this is a landmark and there are other architects and gardeners who from a

[53:39] former time were honored here and memorialized not memorialized but um I

[53:46] don't want to lose that landmark essence. Also, I don't mind if it's in a

[53:53] different part of a garden, but I I just I don't see the thread in any of these

[53:59] that ties it to the history that we as a group and the Historic Preservation

[54:07] Commission um agreed that we wanted to maintain. And and again, I know this is

[54:14] preliminary, so if you're asking purely about uh the remembrance and and one [clears throat] portion, I'm I'm you

[54:22] know, this looks amazing. But I I just want to make sure that that's incorporated and I want to go on the record as saying that um because I think

[54:32] that's a key component that we as a group wanted to make sure we worked through.

[54:39] I I can kind of answer that. At least my interpretation Ben stopped me if I'm going sideways, but the council ring in the middle is where there's currently

[54:47] the circle in the middle of the rose garden and reflects back on Jensen's Jensen. The materials that are being recommended are also very much

[54:56] Jensenesque in terms of the composition of the stone and so forth. If you look at the loes so to speak of the woven

[55:05] together that actually if you look at the plans from the rose garden is is almost like a 90° flip of what was

[55:14] brought in. And there was a reference to using native roses not the ones that got chopped that Egan came up with that

[55:22] never really became anything in that rose garden. So it almost becomes more so of what it is because what it was supposed to be

[55:31] what it was supposed to be because if you think about it, it has that council circle. It has those Jensen materials.

[55:36] It has the roses and it has the wild flowers. So each of the different components that were brought in for

[55:43] Jesse Lo Smith and for John Jensen and for Egan are still there.

[55:49] Okay. Um, so I want to assure you that that concept, that concept, those historical pieces are absolutely [clears throat] referenced in the design.

[55:58] I think that sums it up well. I guess I would also just say that there's sort of an unfortunate irony in the um, Jesse Lo

[56:05] Smith and Jensen Jensen portions of the garden that these are two people who care deeply about the natural environment and native plant materials

[56:12] and they're just dominated by invasive species right now. And so we're going to clean it up.

[56:17] Yeah. Part of the intent of this is definitely to um create a sort of thriving ecology within the space that would honor the legacy of those.

[56:28] Great. That's very helpful. So, my last two points are very simple and that's uh agreement with the mayor about the stones and with council member

[56:36] Bloomberg. Uh in the Jewish faith, I mean I I it's not about stones and water, it's about stones at graveyards.

[56:46] [clears throat]

[56:46] Yeah. and and so and I do think there's a risk with the community because the last thing we want to do is tell people

[56:53] how to spend their time here and how they should um pay their respects or or

[57:01] come and and have some meditative time. And so I think that to open it up to sort of

[57:08] throwing stones in a pond or whatever, it could be problematic both in terms of

[57:14] what happens in maintenance. And I I don't want to be policing it in any way.

[57:20] I I mean I think this should be where people come and reflect, but I don't want to open it up in that way because it's disrespectful actually

[57:28] um to to that type of custom at least within the Jewish religion. So, I completely agree with you. Neil, the

[57:36] last thing I just wanted to say is I I'm quite partial to the aspen. I think it's a tree that will really do well all year

[57:44] round and that I think will really be a theme. And so to respect the seasonality

[57:52] and the longevity and the way it reproduces also, mayor, I think that's exactly on point if you understand

[57:58] aspens. So I um I I'm [clears throat] thrilled with that aspect of it. Thanks, Marissa.

[58:06] Um so I first of all I think they all three of them are like incredible and great work. Um I was leaning towards one

[58:14] and part of two. Like there's components of two that I do like. I like the hardcape look too. Um and more of the

[58:22] open like when you first you walk into this it's more open for families to kind of do what they want. And so that's why

[58:29] I'm kind of torn between one and two. Um I agree though with the stones and that

[58:34] [laughter] portion of [clears throat]

[58:34] it. I'm not see um not being um you know adding anything and in fact it could be a distraction especially as I think of

[58:43] families with children going in. Um so I mean I think there I'm would be happy with one or two. Um I like I said

[58:52] there's just a few components of two that um I like the hardscape. I like the the look of it. It's a little bit more

[59:00] open. So, that's kind of what I like with two, but more a little bit more free flow.

[59:05] So, I like that. But one is also, you know, there's lots of elements I like with one as well. So, thank you. Thank you. Y and then John.

[59:15] Um, I'll go I can go to John if that's I

[59:21] might as well start. Um the uh I guess I would have preferred but we

[59:29] haven't done that that I there's got to be some connection to Port Clinton Square. So I would have preferred flowing into that and and hearing what

[59:38] that connection is. But yeah, before we started talking about this, because to me that's a little disconnect, but um I

[59:47] um uh I to the point about um honoring the

[59:54] uh the people we were honoring, we are supposed to be currently honoring in the rose garden, I assume there would be

[1:00:01] some text or something beyond the the just the plant material that that is there

[1:00:09] because I doubt that many people are going to make that connection without being told that. Um but the other um uh

[1:00:18] question I have is um it would have been helpful to see what this you know uh

[1:00:26] since you this is a rendering. This is not what we were actually looking at a rendering as well of [snorts] what it

[1:00:33] would look like during the winter. um the you know what what the plants are going to look like during the winter

[1:00:41] because there's we showed a lot of flowering plants and and uh uh I think that since the majority of the time it

[1:00:50] things aren't going to be blooming it it would be helpful to see that. Um, regarding the

[1:00:58] pedals, um, I I just want to mention that I I think that rather than, you know, if you were to use petals, rather

[1:01:06] than, you know, petals that seem like they've fallen from a tree, you know, somehow have them not be horizontal, but

[1:01:15] more more vertical. Um, and um, uh, I I think I think

[1:01:24] I mean, I I do definitely appreciate in the first one the opportunity and having

[1:01:31] had a chance to talk to somebody who's, you know, directly affected. Uh,

[1:01:38] who, you know, is related to to one of the the victims.

[1:01:44] It it it it sounds like at least one perspective is that it would be very

[1:01:50] nice to have that that uh that personal uh moment. Um

[1:01:58] um I want to add I do I I did raise the issue of when we talk about the water elements you know that

[1:02:06] it it you know during the winter you can't have it but uh running but at the same time I do like this idea of the

[1:02:13] sound of of water um to me the water's that that's the most beautiful part is

[1:02:20] just hearing water running um and I wondered if there was an opportunity

[1:02:27] um if in some manner and I'm just putting it out there I I that I I hope

[1:02:35] that this wouldn't be nixed immediately but rather just percolate somewhere that

[1:02:41] if if we have these in any way are individually honoring you know seven

[1:02:49] seven victims that that it take on if if at all possible if if it's, you know,

[1:02:56] piece of stone or metal or whatever that it somehow we work with the the families that it might reflect um a little of

[1:03:06] their personality or something something very subtle that that you know speaks to who they they they were that

[1:03:13] [clears throat] it might be a nice nod to to the families. Um, and I can't say I think that conceptually I do like the

[1:03:23] those opportunities to reflect on, you know, a single, you know, one of the

[1:03:30] seven victims in in number one. Um, but I think there are opportunities in in all of them.

[1:03:39] Um, I think there are opportunities in all of them. And [snorts] um I did and

[1:03:45] I'm not I wondered if if um this is just throwing something out there. Have you ever had it considered a a zen garden kind of aspect to it?

[1:03:56] Um and just because that would be seasonless, you know, free of seasons.

[1:04:02] And um I think I think that is is is it. That's all I can think of right now.

[1:04:10] Okay. Thanks, Sean.

[1:04:12] Thank you. Uh, and I don't forget about Council Member Topia as well. I was on the phone. I'm on it. Okay. Ben, I wish I had your vocabulary.

[1:04:21] Oh my god, the way you described it was remarkable.

[1:04:24] Um, you know, when I first kind of flipped through these, I thought all three of them really looked interesting. And then hearing you

[1:04:32] describe and go go through each one of them, it was abundantly clear that number one captures everything that

[1:04:40] we're talking about. Um, I think there's significant purpose. There's symbolism. It's reflective.

[1:04:47] I I heard you use words like community.

[1:04:51] U, it's welcoming. You've paid homage appropriately to the historic nature that we're going for in terms of the previous purpose. I think it

[1:04:59] incorporates the natural elements beautifully. Uh, I really think it's it it provides optionality for visitors to

[1:05:08] either walk and or sit and reflect. And I think that's really important to give people

[1:05:15] that choice. Um it just feels very Highland Park, right? It's engulfed in nature. Uh I find two to be pretty

[1:05:24] sterile. Uh and we we and I made some commentary on three as well. I don't think we even to

[1:05:32] talk about it. Well, I I think you did a really you and your team did a really really nice job in capturing everything

[1:05:40] that um was was provided to you in the form of feedback there. So So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Andre.

[1:05:52] Council member Tapia. Still lit up.

[1:05:59] You're on You're on mute.

[1:06:13] Can you hear me? Now we can hear you. Thank you.

[1:06:16] Okay. [snorts] Yeah. Um I have a question and then I have comments. Uh so what is the the

[1:06:24] scale of all three? How did they benchmark against the scale of other comparable you know, remembrance that you all are working on.

[1:06:36] Um, great great question, council member Tatapias. I think uh

[1:06:44] I think it, you know, it's interesting because this site doesn't have its own dedicated parking feature either. So,

[1:06:52] it's really kind of set within this civic context that's close around it. I think the scale of the actual space is

[1:07:00] is quite comparable to to other such spaces we've worked on, but the scale of intervention is smaller because there's

[1:07:08] not a broader site infrastructure or approach. Um, it's kind of and and it feels maybe more condensed [snorts]

[1:07:15] because you have the library right there, you have the city hall right there. And I didn't for the sake of time spend a ton of time speaking to the specifics of screening, but all three of

[1:07:24] these schemes because of that context try to kind of screen to some degree the the sites around it. Um, this is sort of

[1:07:33] a counterintuitive concept in garden design, but smaller spaces feel bigger when they're more [clears throat]

[1:07:42] condensed. uh when you don't make a small space feel really wide open if you if you walk into a space and you feel like I can see everything all at once um

[1:07:51] and it is small it feels small so we tried to work with the the third concept you do sort of take in the view all at

[1:07:58] once but that one view is a little bit bigger in that space so that that's the one where we allow the space to be kind

[1:08:05] of taken in in one go um and in the first two certainly it kind of the space sort of revealed itself as you move

[1:08:13] through it. So it will feel larger as a result.

[1:08:19] Okay. Uh so thank you for that. Uh I so that would just be a somewhat of a thing to keep in mind. I I worry about the

[1:08:28] space looking too big or too tight, right? And seems like you're taking that into account as you think about it. But

[1:08:35] I think as you refine it, um I would um I would just want to uh be mindful of of of that because you know it's it it's a different kind of green space, right?

[1:08:47] Because you know if it were a park for for just no remembers. It's a park, you know, you want wide open spaces, you

[1:08:53] want that kind of feel. This that there's a sense of you want privacy um and not so claustrophobic. So it's a

[1:09:01] little tricky thing. So, I just wanted to put that out there that as the designs get tighter, uh, I need more specific to really I I just want to keep

[1:09:10] bringing up the how what the space is going to feel like if they're too open or too too tight. So, that's one

[1:09:16] comment. Um the other is um in terms of uh three I do lean more toward option

[1:09:23] one um because my my colleagues here I would agree that that the ability of

[1:09:30] just families and friends and others to remember each of the seven in a very particular way however you want to do it and with some little bit of privacy that

[1:09:39] felt really appropriate and I like that even with that there's a common area in the front so you're doing kind of do

[1:09:46] things do and it's the only concept that where I heard you present [clears throat] taking account the the

[1:09:53] requirement that we address diversity of our community the diversity of those who the victims and this is the only one

[1:10:02] that really creates space that is both about the unity of the community but also the fact that we have differences so I think that that there's a plus for

[1:10:11] one that the others have been to have the one concern I have about concept one if I turned your narrative right about

[1:10:19] people walking when you I like the fact that family members and friends could gather around and sit by their loved

[1:10:28] ones remembrance but then what happens to the flow of traffic of people who are just walking through are they going to

[1:10:35] walk right between where they're sitting and where that the remembrance is the reflective pool the small reflective

[1:10:43] pool that you're thinking of and if that's I saw that ride. I would be worried about that because then what's supposed to be a private moment is going

[1:10:50] to be interrupted by people walking through. So I I would have Do I have that right? Uh so you it's it's really

[1:11:00] important point you bring up and I I addressed this on Thursday but uh in I sort of skipped over it um in the

[1:11:07] interest of time today but we did think about that very that very issue specifically with this concept. Um, and

[1:11:15] that is partly why we have this path running down the center. So that if you notice that one of these niches is already in use, you could just skip one

[1:11:24] sort of lobe of the weave and keep keep moving through the space.

[1:11:28] Keep walking straight. Yeah. instead of over to the individual sort of at any moment uh along that woven path,

[1:11:36] you will have the opportunity before you enter the next niche to diverge um and sort of skip over a space to to allow people their privacy.

[1:11:47] Yeah. And so, okay, and this is something to think about. I wonder if they could if people could get closer to

[1:11:55] the to rather than skipping the whole person's remembrance is there like a more private it's the pathway for those

[1:12:04] that want to gather and then a one that's a little bit more public like behind it or something right maybe two path one in the front one at the back of

[1:12:12] it uh the one in the front is more where the people sit and then the one behind it is where you can walk by and still be able to participate so I don't know I

[1:12:20] don't have a problem talk for you. But I I I don't I don't like the idea of well, we'll just skip it, you know, then it's like, well, that's and you don't want to

[1:12:28] hurry up the people doing something private and and feeling that they're in the way or something, right? Uh if you're going to do private, if you want

[1:12:36] to be there as long as you you want to be and not feel you hold people up and you don't feel and if you want to honor all seven and then you honor only honor

[1:12:43] five of them, it just feels like a new complete experience. I just wanted to surface that as the run of it.

[1:12:49] I I think that's a really valid point and to your first question about the scale of the space. Um there's there is a reason why only one of these schemes

[1:12:58] had seven individual spaces and that is because the context around the edges of this site is very uneven. And we had to

[1:13:07] work with ways to sort of create a frame within the site so it felt like each of these spaces was equal and not like oh

[1:13:14] one person has this really nice space over by the library and this other person has a space by the trash enclosure.

[1:13:20] Um right. Um so there are sort of geometric limitations to the site that

[1:13:27] um we were we we I will say we iterated on that particular issue quite a lot and this was kind of the neatest solution we

[1:13:35] found in the time that we had. But I think it is something that's worth exploring further like how do you kind of keep the flow. I think it's also

[1:13:42] possible that we could introduce the names of the seven victims you know all together in one place. Maybe that's at the end of of the site. Um, so that you

[1:13:52] don't have that feeling of of having skipped anything. We obviously don't want to have anyone feel rushed or uh

[1:14:00] like they they're only getting a partial experience, but that's sort of that is I mean you're you're naming a [snorts] um

[1:14:08] a real challenge to that approach. Um we're not working with kind of an endless open field here. Um, so how do

[1:14:16] we and and we also I will say wanted to maintain enough space between those niches that they felt private from each other too,

[1:14:25] right? Um, so it's like how kind of how far can you stretch out but how close together can you be? Um, and that's

[1:14:32] something that we can continue to to test and and play with. Uh, certainly as as things evolve.

[1:14:40] Got it. Okay. And then the final quick thing is uh I think council member Ross is uh just asking about more of a zen

[1:14:48] garden and decent parts of it. I I'm very worried about uh the seasonality and the sort of lush vegetation seasons

[1:14:57] that we have and we want this to look really attractive and meaningful throughout the year. So uh this that's what I have.

[1:15:07] Thank you. Um, we need to also talk about Port Clinton Square. Are you okay if we hold your comments or

[1:15:16] are we are we going back to it then because to this to the Rose Garden?

[1:15:21] No. Yeah, because I So Tony had his hand up first. So if we could keep it super brief because I want us to get through the

[1:15:29] conversation. [clears throat] Totally. Thank you. Um, very briefly, I noticed when you were showing the um, walking paths that are highlighted in sort of a fuchsia color.

[1:15:39] Uh, one thing I suspect was intentional that I like uh, regarding the first plane. There it is.

[1:15:47] The entrance goes around the outside of the seating area of the of the council ring. Yeah.

[1:15:52] And there isn't an opening directly at the back of that council ring to feed you down the center of the seven loaves.

[1:16:01] So it takes people out of interfering with people who are sitting at the council room and it takes people out of whomever

[1:16:10] is enjoying what part of the rest of the place of remembrance and allows the circulation

[1:16:17] element to be a separate element from being involved in the place of remembrance.

[1:16:24] It looks intentional to me that the entryway and exit way that it's not just symmetrical. Right. Right.

[1:16:32] So, I appreciate that. Thank you, David. Uh, thank you. Um, very quickly, um,

[1:16:40] I'm I'm not sure just putting it on all of our radar how how we would choose

[1:16:46] since it is in somewhat linear in that you're going from front to back, you

[1:16:53] know, how you would choose, you know, which of, you know, the the victims is, you know, what order?

[1:17:01] What order? I talked about that. I don't know. Um, and uh, I wouldn't, you know, I certainly want to work with the victim's families to make sure that

[1:17:10] they're comfortable with the with the order.

[1:17:12] Um, and uh, and and then again at some point if you could talk about your vision for what it's going to look like in wintertime.

[1:17:20] Yeah. Um, that would be helpful.

[1:17:22] We fully intend to, you know, develop more renderings of of that aspect of it.

[1:17:28] But uh you know I hope you all appreciate that in 3 weeks time we and I I have to say I do appreciate I

[1:17:36] should have led with this. I do appreciate the the time, the complexity, um the the challenges of what you have

[1:17:45] embarked on and I thank you for you know that work and I'll also say that as a as a motan I I understand that winter is real and I

[1:17:53] think about how to make gardens beautiful in winter all the time.

[1:17:57] Wonderful is a lot of our year there is here. Um shall I go on to Portland? Sure.

[1:18:04] Okay.

[1:18:07] [snorts]

[1:18:09] Thank you for your patience.

[1:18:13] Okay, so three three concepts for Port Clinton. These each um relate back to the Rose Garden sites. Uh we did give a

[1:18:21] second a different name to the second concept because it's sort of uh linked through the idea of kind of interaction with the space rather than something

[1:18:30] aesthetic or formal. Um the first concept so uh you'll recall that um

[1:18:37] there's sort of seven trees that are uh kind of taken out of the trees framing the space to make space for these remembrance niches. The idea here is

[1:18:45] that those seven trees actually end up in Port Clinton. The 12 trees that are there um today are I think about 70% of

[1:18:53] them are in poor health according to the arborist. Um, and locust trees are sort of a a problematic choice for an on

[1:19:01] structure condition because they really like to spread their roots out in, you know, almost like a lawn type condition.

[1:19:06] So, we would choose something that will do well. I think the upright maple, for instance, or an upright oak would do well in a nonstructured condition.

[1:19:14] They're compact trees. They don't need to spread their roots out. Um, and so that would then be kind of an

[1:19:20] opportunity for lighting those trees, making them feel significant. Um, and then there would be likely, you know,

[1:19:29] perhaps a metal object that has names of the victims inscribed in it within the space as well. Uh, the second concept

[1:19:37] um, features a something like a post office box, but more of like an art or sculpture object that people can

[1:19:45] interact with by sort of sending letters to their loved ones. Their letters are never read. Um, but you're kind of

[1:19:52] putting them into this this black box essentially taking again the the time the intention to to sort of participate

[1:19:59] and interact with the space. And then the final concept petals sees sort of an eighth one of these rose petal

[1:20:06] sculptures end up in Port Clinton with a sort of bench element to sit and reflect with that. Looking a little bit more closely at these on on all of these.

[1:20:16] I'll also say we really wanted to avoid doing too much to disturb the existing paving. Um like

[1:20:24] sort of technical reality of this site being on structure is that as soon as you start changing the ground plane in

[1:20:31] any significant way, you may have to rewaterproof and from a um cost cost standpoint that could be a real

[1:20:39] black hole. um that could end up being much more of the budget than anybody, you know, if you end up going back to the community and saying we spend a quarter of our budget on rewaterproofing

[1:20:47] Port Clinton and nobody's ever going to experience that, right? Um so we want to be cognizant of that reality. Um so all of

[1:20:55] these try to take sort of a light touch structurally um while having kind of conceptual

[1:21:02] um symbolism to them that that resonates for this site but also with the rose garden. So this is what the seven trees

[1:21:09] feel like. We sort of keep planting within the other planters, maybe in increase the amount of planting, make it

[1:21:17] feel a little bit less like uh just bedding, but something a little bit more intentional. Um and you know, we would we would want to

[1:21:25] explore in greater depth what that actual kind of object with the names of the victims inscribed on it would be. Um but potentially opportunity with that

[1:21:35] object also with the trees to bring light into the space so that you know during the day seven trees have that

[1:21:42] symbolism but at night that's really kind of that symbolism becomes kind of illuminated in a sense and you had said that the trees would

[1:21:50] maybe reflect the maples that were planted. Yes, it would be similar. Yep. Plant material.

[1:21:57] Yeah. So if I go back, you can see the diagram in the bottom left shows where the remembrance niches are. Those are sort of the seven openings in the tree

[1:22:04] line where they're a tree is kind of missing from that line in order to make space for the niche. And seven of the same trees would end up back in this uh plaza space.

[1:22:17] So, the second concept um is a little bit, you know, we it's a little bit kitschy, but it was sort of based on

[1:22:24] kind of the the warmth and love that we sort of perceived in a lot of the the photos we saw of how people reacted in

[1:22:32] the wake of the tragedy, things that people wrote on notes, sort of temporary memorials that popped up. And so, it sort of fills that space, a place for

[1:22:40] people to write caring messages and and leave those. This object would um again

[1:22:47] have narrative um inscribed on it. It would have the names of the seven victims inscribed on it. Um and it would

[1:22:54] allow people to take a moment to um just sit, think, write um and and engage.

[1:23:04] And then the final concept again sees an eighth one of these rose petals uh find its way into Port Clinton. And

[1:23:12] while the seven in the Rose Garden site would not have specific names inscribed on them, we imagine that this H1 might have all seven names inscribed around

[1:23:20] the outside. Um and then perhaps introducing a furniture or bench element um in close proximity to that so that

[1:23:28] people can come sit reflect the materials that would would also sort of tie back to the Rose Garden site. Um

[1:23:38] and all of these you'll notice we kind of located in the grove um the upper area. That was both a sort of practical

[1:23:46] idea that you know this is space that can't be kind of occupied by a large crowd. It does not get um sort of

[1:23:55] populated for events in the same way that the lower plaza does. But there's also more importantly kind of an honorific standpoint of saying, "Hey,

[1:24:03] this is the elevated space within the plaza where we're holding this in high regard. This is kind of an important moment. Let's lift it up."

[1:24:13] Um, yeah, I'll go back to the three.

[1:24:18] These are better seen through the views, too. So, than the plants, I'm happy to skip around each concept. and we do this holiday lighting ceremony.

[1:24:29] What would be the role of the seven trees? Would they not be lit in memorial? Would they be lit? What is

[1:24:37] that just a decision that needs to be made?

[1:24:39] I think that's probably a decision that needs to be made. It's also something that we could explore in greater nuance with uh WSP who's going to be doing the

[1:24:47] lighting design. And while we're okay for highle concepts about lighting, they're they're really poetic and

[1:24:56] thoughtful about that in a way that um you know, so so I think for so maybe a different treatment if there is lighting Yeah.

[1:25:05] for them compared to what's Yeah, potentially. Yeah. I highlight that and WSP will be engaging more um once we

[1:25:15] [cough] have sort of a sense of the direction this is going. They'll be coming in from both a sort of civil infrastructural standpoint but also from a lighting design. So our hope is that

[1:25:24] June 8th we will in addition to having things like images of the site in all seasons we'll have some images of the site with lighting at night too.

[1:25:34] Thank you. I have to say I like number one again. Um I think it's respectful. I think it ties the two spaces together in

[1:25:43] a way that's um thoughtful. Um number two just doesn't make sense to me to be

[1:25:50] honest with you. It's an interesting idea. Um and again I've already said xnite to three. So I think one really

[1:25:59] kind of achieves what we're trying to achieve. But uh looking forward to hearing from everybody else. Andreas, I'm going to call on you first cuz you were last last time.

[1:26:10] Are you there?

[1:26:18] Okay, while we're waiting for Andre, we'll go to Yumi.

[1:26:20] No, John. Sorry, John was second to last.

[1:26:24] Oh, [laughter] sorry.

[1:26:27] Um, thank you. Uh, oh, there you go. Okay. I'm looking forward to my laptop and the phone.

[1:26:35] Um, you know, I I really struggle with this concept completely on all three.

[1:26:41] Um, [cough] you know, where you know, for Clinton, you know, we struggle with some

[1:26:49] the the leadership team of kind of peace mealing certain things when we need to be more holistic. And poor Clinton,

[1:26:57] aside from the other, just aside from it, has needed a a relisting, a redesign for a very long time. We've talked about

[1:27:05] it. And so, and so here I feel that we are grafting on to an old 1980s,

[1:27:13] whatever year that was, design that really is outdated and needs to be used on for its own sake because all the

[1:27:22] vibrancy things that are important, all trying to do. And so I'm really struggling with exacting this time on

[1:27:29] something that is just an outdated thing that we need to address. I would rather and I know this kind of messes up timing

[1:27:36] a big time, but I would rather us really have a bigger conversation about what support would be comprehensive. It's at

[1:27:43] the center of the city and then within that this tragedy and this remembrance and this resilience message should be

[1:27:52] part of it. I think we need to reook at the whole fork thing as a holistic thing and this is one of the requirements that

[1:27:59] we need to address. So I don't want to comment on any of the things because I think it's just a misguided approach uh overall.

[1:28:07] Thank you for that. Okay, John.

[1:28:11] Um Council Member Topia stole my thunder. I I agree. I agree 100%.

[1:28:20] Um, we've talked over the cap past year about broader plans to modernize and revitalize Port Clinton. And I think

[1:28:29] we've been making a massive mistake to make a definitive decision around this uh memorial without thinking through the

[1:28:38] broader implications of what needs to be an updated Port Clinton. I also think if we think about

[1:28:46] the participants who have expressed their desire to have a memorial here, correct me if

[1:28:54] [clears throat] I'm wrong, but I believe the data suggested that the, you know, the next of kin and and those who were kind of most directly impacted were the ones who really wanted something here.

[1:29:03] [snorts]

[1:29:04] And I'm not sure any of these sort of pay the appropriate respect to what those people want. And so

[1:29:13] those for those two reasons um I think we need to pump the brakes on this part of it understanding that it

[1:29:22] has implications for the broader project but we have to get this right not just based on some

[1:29:30] timeline that we think we want to get it done by.

[1:29:32] So um I hear what you both are saying. I can just tell you that we've talked about redoing Port Clinton Square since 2009.

[1:29:42] Um, and great idea, but I don't see it in the CIP for the next 10 years. And I

[1:29:50] urge you to maybe think about maybe this isn't a permanent thing, but to say, hang on, we're going to redo

[1:29:58] Port Clinton Square when a this group hasn't talked about it. B, it's not in any 10-year capital improvement plan. I

[1:30:06] worry that it's going to be 10 years before anything happens in Port Clinton to reflect this tragedy. And I urge you

[1:30:13] guys to maybe [clears throat] take a step back from that line of thinking.

[1:30:17] It's a great idea. Be efficient with tax dollars, but let's be realistic. There is zero plan right now to redo Port Clinton. It

[1:30:25] is a ton of money. And I feel as I look into the audience and see two people who were directly impacted by this tragedy

[1:30:32] and several more who were also directly impacted.

[1:30:36] I don't think this is the way you guys want to proceed.

[1:30:38] I Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Um we had we had a meeting last year uh during we're about to have another one, right, where multiple members of council put it

[1:30:46] on our whiteboard of of of it being a priority and it hasn't been brought up back to our attention. So here we are again. We're about to have the same

[1:30:55] discussion next week. Let's bring it up again. Let's get it on our 10ear CIP plan. And I think what's a better what

[1:31:03] what what a better solution than um what's what's a better uh response I

[1:31:11] should say to what happened than changing the way that whole place looks, right? And and and showing our vitality

[1:31:20] and showing the the the resilience and the response. um versus just throwing something there and letting it be what it what it has been historically.

[1:31:28] Uh DA would like to chime in. Go ahead.

[1:31:31] Um thank you for that feedback and certainly we're we're documenting everyone's feedback because this is important as part of you know the public engagement and the feedback from the

[1:31:39] elected officials. Um, so as it relates to the Port Clinton redevelopment, um, we did talk about revisiting Port

[1:31:47] Clinton for a possible redevelopment, but we wanted to kind of wait to see how the downtown events would do from the

[1:31:54] lot versus relocating them to um, that the location where we closed central.

[1:32:00] Um, and so that conversation will come back where we have that input from businesses and the public and so forth.

[1:32:08] So, um, but as the mayor indicated, it's not on our 10-year CIP, but we do review our budget certainly every year. I guess

[1:32:15] as it pertains to this, I mean, a policy decision was made pertaining to these two locations. My suggestion is that we

[1:32:24] do present this to the public um, as part of the public engagement that we've rolled out. They've already seen part of

[1:32:32] this if they're, you know, we have people here and we've been presenting publicly. So, let's get everyone's feedback as part of this. We have a

[1:32:39] special meeting with the city council on June 8th to come back with [clears throat] the public feedback that we've received to date and then we can have another policy decision at that

[1:32:48] point in terms of what would be the appropriate next step for this location. Okay, Amy.

[1:32:53] Uh, thank you. Um, I hear you. Um, I am just going to add my

[1:33:01] voice because this is not stealing my thunder. I just happen to agree with the

[1:33:06] point. Um I I you know um we can certainly discuss this further but I

[1:33:14] think um it's a mistake not to um consider the the

[1:33:22] refurbishing re redesign [clears throat] of of you know Port Clinton Square

[1:33:29] um as as a separate uh project from from from this one. I mean, at at worst case,

[1:33:35] I I I just see us having to redo the memorial portion because it it we we've

[1:33:43] got a a bigger, you know, also have, you know, plans uh for Portland Square. I I nobody wants to to

[1:33:52] waste money. Um and uh and I to the point about timeline I I want I I feel

[1:34:01] so strongly that that uh I I don't want a too aggressive timeline for the

[1:34:09] unveiling of the memorial. I want to I think design good design takes time uh

[1:34:15] time to uh develop to massage and uh we owe it to the community um not to be

[1:34:23] rushing through this. I'm not saying take forever on this but give it give it its due time and consideration and thoughtfulness. Um

[1:34:32] to the point about the the the trees um I I've mentioned this before. I don't love that. You know, it is what it is.

[1:34:43] We have lights up year round. Other there there are other cities that take the the lights down. I feel like we're strangling the trees. So, I'd rather not

[1:34:52] put I'd rather have up lights. Um I'd rather than uh wrap it in wrap any trees

[1:34:58] in lights. Um and I did want to uh say on on Could you put up the slide for the last uh the one with the yoko?

[1:35:08] I [clears throat] I I did uh that that one with the the the lotus uh the leaves the individual leaves that that form

[1:35:16] this lotus. I appreciate the yokono reference uh there. I um uh know this

[1:35:24] was brought to your attention by uh myself by uh um one of the uh victim's

[1:35:32] families and it it is uh it the the piece about it that I like. I'm not sure that we're going to do any of that, but

[1:35:42] um I and I have a personal connection to it in full transparency because I was on the team that installed that um in Jackson Park and it it is in full view

[1:35:51] of the new Obama Center and it that that in in that case and I brought this up at the very first committee of the whole meeting that we had when we talked about

[1:36:00] how we were going to approach the design um in two different locations. Uh, Yokoono took one of those leaves and or

[1:36:08] made an extra leaf and put it at the art uh institute in in the Pritsker garden.

[1:36:16] Um, and she uh uh put uh used the Japanese kimsugi approach of mended you

[1:36:24] know something broken that's mended and you see the the mended lines of that

[1:36:31] reconstruct the leaf. Uh it's a it's a Japanese tradition that something broken men did in a in in this meth method is

[1:36:40] stronger and more resilient than than than what you know than the original. Um and I I I did like that symbolism. Uh

[1:36:49] but in this case the the the leaves are are more upright, not not you know which would certainly address any issue of

[1:36:57] bonking your head on it. Um but uh anyway, I appreciate the reference. I'm not sure they'll make it into any of the iterations, but uh I I it's an

[1:37:06] interesting idea. And certainly I I do like the idea of carrying a piece an actual piece to Portland Square. Thank you.

[1:37:15] Thank you. And we would do that with the trees as well.

[1:37:19] Marissa. Um, so I was actually gonna like this was mentioned before, but when I was going through and thinking about

[1:37:26] this, um, as I had mentioned previously, like some type of urban play space in Ports, I got to thinking what if we

[1:37:34] change it to not an urban play space, but something to make reference to with the memorial as a secondary. I don't know what that looks like, but maybe to

[1:37:41] help with, you know, the, you know, we'd mentioned to bring life and children and just more energy back into Fort Clinton

[1:37:50] as well. I I don't know how that what that would look like. That was just an idea I had as I was looking through and reading the documents. since I know that

[1:37:58] we've talked about some type of something there for children and somehow to kind of tie that into the it's not on

[1:38:05] here as one of the ideas, but just an idea that I kind of came across um in my mind. Um that's kind of where my head

[1:38:13] was. Um if not I would say the trees because you know the idea of redeveloping um Port Clinton that we've

[1:38:22] spoke about um that wouldn't you know we would have room to also you know come up with some other ideas to with in terms

[1:38:30] of Port Clinton. So that's kind of where I was. I know I've mentioned this for the you know on and off for a year the urban the play space. So I thought oh

[1:38:37] maybe that's something for the secondary we could tie in somehow. So kind of were my comments. So thank you Annette.

[1:38:46] So um I'm very torn because philosophically I really do agree that it should be part of a comprehensive plan if we're going to at some point

[1:38:55] spend the money and do port Clinton actually completely over in whatever iteration we want to do it. On the other

[1:39:04] hand, um I don't see us doing that for a very long time. Um,

[1:39:11] so I'm going to just give my gut as if we were moving forward because um I think that that's where we are tonight.

[1:39:19] So we may as well discuss that portion of it.

[1:39:22] Um, at least in the Jewish religion, trees are living things. And the fact that

[1:39:30] those trees would be taken from the rose garden and you'd have the open space there and those trees are actually then in Port Clinton I think is a beautiful connection in terms of life and meaning.

[1:39:42] And so symbolically I really love this idea of the seven trees. I do not like

[1:39:51] the idea of like all names on one. I would really want each tree to represent each life that we lost there because I

[1:39:59] think for many of the people and again I don't know how private it won't be private but that's per Clinton and

[1:40:07] that's where it happened and so maybe that openness of it with a symbol that is of life in many ways I think is very touching and I like that idea.

[1:40:19] I will say the lighting actually really presents us with a wonderful opportunity

[1:40:25] and that is that many people don't like the trees being lit all year like we have right now and so I think maybe in

[1:40:34] the holiday season we could light the trees but during the year the only ones

[1:40:40] that would be uplift would be the seven and in some ways that would really be paying homage every single light and

[1:40:49] giving it a more respectful and bigger place um at a time when it isn't as much um in

[1:40:58] people's mind's eye. it this way. It could be um the kind of thing I I mean I love this. Not the ones with the glitter

[1:41:05] on the branches, but the uplighting of the main trunks there to symbolize the remembrance on a nightly basis.

[1:41:14] Um and not have the other trees with all the, as my mother would say, angop stuff up [laughter] there. But then during the

[1:41:22] holiday season, you could do the lighting of all the trees that we have and not [clears throat] light those trees really to show the loss that we have all felt.

[1:41:32] Right?

[1:41:33] So, uh again, I'm philosophically quite torn, frankly, because I don't like planning like this, but I also feel we

[1:41:42] need to really remember and really um I I love this concept. So,

[1:41:50] thank you. Uh Tony, so I I want to acknowledge the the design challenge that you faced. There

[1:41:58] is within our community those that see this as a commercial space that they do not want altered and are concerned

[1:42:07] about having to face their memories of the event and others who recognize that this is really sort of a place where

[1:42:15] this event happened. And to that degree, it it uh [clears throat] borders on becoming a memorial as opposed to an

[1:42:24] extension of the place of remembrance. I think you've done a good job especially with uh number one of bridging

[1:42:33] those needs of having a place that people can interact with. Remember [clears throat] uh if they were there

[1:42:41] remember and want to recall that and the people who were directly uh involved with that while affording

[1:42:50] the commercial use of the space. At some point, if we redo Port Clinton, we have to remember that this event happened

[1:42:58] there. And what we can redo at Port Clinton does not include the buildings. Those buildings are privately owned.

[1:43:05] They have stores and businesses in them.

[1:43:07] Whatever we redo to Port Clinton, the shape of Port Clinton is not going to change. and the fact that this event

[1:43:14] happened there is with us forever. So now is the time to make this decision in my opinion. Um I'm most comfortable with

[1:43:23] number one. I think it needs a little bit of tweaking. Uh but it it provides a place of remembrance, an opportunity for

[1:43:32] solace amid whatever else is going on around it without being so overwhelming that those who are going to go to the

[1:43:40] store uh use the space for its commercial purposes who have

[1:43:47] uh a more troubled connection with the event don't have to interact with it. And I I think it finds that balance.

[1:43:56] Thank you, Andre.

[1:44:00] Yeah, I just wanted to come back to, you know, the dilemma here. Um, you know, there's always dilemmas and there's

[1:44:07] always paradoxes and and I think when we have uh something that is somewhat

[1:44:14] seemingly intractable, you know, to your point, mayor about 10 years or whatever the case may be. Yet, um, I think that

[1:44:22] we do face something very important here. I I just wonder if we can push the design team further to try to find something that can at least bridge the

[1:44:31] gap between a 10year rebuild and something that just [clears throat] it just is a an attachment or you know

[1:44:39] respectful attachment to what is already there and something that we do really want to do something with and um I think

[1:44:46] philosophically or just emotionally you know this was a place this has always been a place of gathering for the community and celebration

[1:44:54] for undating things and everybody have even those who grew up here have all these memories there that are very positive and then that was one of the

[1:45:03] great tragedies is the loss of life but also the that the heart of of symbolically is the heart of the city

[1:45:12] you know bloodshed [snorts] and so I I I just I want I really kind of two things the remembrance of those who lost and

[1:45:20] injured in and the trauma and the same time. We want to not have this place so

[1:45:28] marked by that moment that the place of celebration at the heart of the city that it's meant so much that we kind of

[1:45:35] get trapped in that in one way to just kind of break come out of it is can we

[1:45:41] come out in a more evolved and modern and vibrant Port Clinton while at the

[1:45:49] same time remembering those who we lost And while the ambition behind, hey, let's redo the whole poor Clinton to

[1:45:57] this next 21st century look, can we at least drive something that gets to out

[1:46:05] of the tragedy and out of the bloodshed, we came out stronger and more vibrant and we don't forget, but we also bring

[1:46:13] our children to Council Member Brockman's point and we not only remember, but we thrive. I just worry

[1:46:20] that this whatever designs are there now do not communicate.

[1:46:25] It it's it's a remembrance and a kind of dressing up a little bit more of Clinton. But I I just don't feel that we

[1:46:33] are coming out of this kind of the Phoenix rising a community that continues to rise and thrive without forgetting. I I I just feel we're

[1:46:42] falling short of that even if we um don't do all for Clinton right away. So I under Thank you for your comments.

[1:46:51] This team needs to be elsewhere at 6:30 for community engagement. So I'm going to ask you to 30 seconds.

[1:47:00] 30 seconds.

[1:47:01] All right. You and then you Yeah. I mean I'll just say that if we're going to pick a design that has seven trees in the middle of Port Clinton, we

[1:47:08] will never do Port Clinton. And I think that's a huge problem.

[1:47:12] I don't know that that's the case, but we won't do it right.

[1:47:16] I uh no because I well we can move the trees and come back and whatever but okay you me 30 seconds then we got

[1:47:23] I I feel that it it uh has become you know in many ways a sacred place for

[1:47:32] and still are the heart of the city. Um, and I think that it is honoring the the seven um victims and what happened in

[1:47:40] Highland Park to to add that piece to it to to reimagine um Portland Square Fuller way. Okay.

[1:47:50] There's a lot more to discuss about this aspect and I appreciate everybody's thoughtful input and I don't mean to rush us, but I do recognize that you

[1:47:58] need to go engage with the community in 15 minutes in a different location. So, I just want to again say thank you for

[1:48:06] what you've presented this evening. We will be back discussing this again June 8th. So, keep your thoughts and analyses

[1:48:14] and bring us more questions and we will have more thoughtful conversation on these decisions and thank you everybody.

[1:48:21] Thank you all and uh you know hopefully what we bring will reflect a lot of what was discussed here today. So, absolutely. Thank you so much.

[1:48:30] Thank you so much for your time. We're gonna take a five minute recess. Great.

[1:48:33] And then we will be Can you get past the back for committee? Thank you.

[1:48:40] Oh, sure.

[1:56:19] Yes. Thank you.

[1:56:23] Um before we continue on with our scheduled business, I need a motion to approve the minutes from our committee of the whole meeting April 27 and 26.

[1:56:32] [clears throat]

[1:56:32] So moved. Second. All in favor say I. I. I. Thank you. The minutes are approved.

[1:56:38] Um, our next item is a policy discussion pertaining to the possible advancement of term limits. Gita Megan, welcome.

[1:56:48] Thank you, mayor. Um, this policy discussion um was brought forward um by one elected officials and based on

[1:56:55] one-on-one communication um with all of our elected officials, there were a majority of individuals that requested a policy discussion at a committee the

[1:57:03] whole meeting. Um so working with corporation council um we uh did re municipal research um we have staff

[1:57:11] information in the packet and then a memorandum from corporation council as it pertains to this topic. Um very

[1:57:18] important for this group um is that if term limits are advanced they would not

[1:57:25] take effect for the terms that you are currently serving. They don't go retroactively backwards. It's only forwards. Um, so just want to make sure that's clear as it pertains to the

[1:57:34] policy discussion um, and feedback. Um, for public information, elected officials are elected to four-year terms

[1:57:43] and we have staggered elections. So, it is very rare um, in fact, I don't know a time where we would have all elected officials um, either being appointed or

[1:57:52] on a ballot at one time period. So, it works well in terms of consistent policy moving forward. Um, I'm going to turn it

[1:57:59] over to uh Megan Cherry who will guide us through the presentation and then we'll open it up um to policy discussion.

[1:58:06] Sounds good. Thank you. All right.

[1:58:10] Um so, as city manager Newkerk mentioned, um per Illinois law, term limits cannot be retroactive. They can only be perspective. So, that's

[1:58:18] something to keep in mind throughout this conversation. Um, city staff did direct corporation council to author a memorandum that outlines the city's

[1:58:26] legal obligations as it pertains to term limits. So, for any change to a home municipality's term limits, those have

[1:58:33] to be approved by referendum. And so, that referendum can be initiated by the city council or voters. So, if the city council wanted to initiate that, um,

[1:58:41] they would have to adopt a resolution or ordinance. And then if the voters wanted to initiate a referendum, that would be done through uh filing a written

[1:58:49] petition with the city clerk. So those are the kind of the two options. The deadline to include a referendum on the ballot depends on who actually initiates the referendum.

[1:58:58] And so this might be a little bit hard to read, but it is in the uh memorandum that's included in the agenda packet, but this out this chart outlines the

[1:59:06] important dates as it pertains to getting a referendum on the ballot. And so this outlines the deadlines for the November 3rd, 2026 general election

[1:59:14] along with the April 6, 2027 consolidated election. And so for the city council to have a referendum on the

[1:59:22] November 3rd, 2026 ballot, um you'd be looking to approve or adopt a resolution or ordinance by August 16th of this year. And then if we're looking at the

[1:59:30] April 6, 2027 consolidated election, that deadline would be January 17th of 2027.

[1:59:38] This also includes the important deadlines for a voter initiated referendum as well.

[1:59:46] So um as part of the preparation for this conversation, we did reach out to 17 neighboring communities regarding

[1:59:53] term limits. 15 of them responded. Um so of those 15, four have informal term limits and four have formal term limits

[2:00:00] and the rest don't have any term limits whatsoever. So, Skoi most recently implemented term limits. That was in

[2:00:08] 2024 and uh that was initiated by the village board.

[2:00:12] Just a quick I I know personally that WKA should be in the middle. They informal. Thank you.

[2:00:20] They may not have responded that way to their survey, but I know it is informal. Gotcha. So, five have informal term.

[2:00:26] [laughter]

[2:00:26] I caught that, too. Oh.

[2:00:29] Um, so as I mentioned, Skoi was the most recent. Um, I know Displayplaines recently amended their term limits in 2023. Um, and then in terms of informal

[2:00:38] term limits, majority of the communities that have informal term limits, those are actually um, determined by their caucus. So that's kind of something to

[2:00:47] keep in mind um, as you're reviewing this information. Um, we also want to note that the city did reach out to the League of Women Voters to understand

[2:00:55] their stance on this topic. So, the League of Women Voters uh of Illinois opposes any term limits for members of the General Assembly. Um the Highland

[2:01:03] Park Highway chapter of the League of Women Voters has not taken a position on this subject. So, just something to note.

[2:01:11] So, we did kind of put together some items that you might want to consider as you have this discussion. So, is council interested in pursuing a referendum to

[2:01:20] establish term limits? If the council initiates the referendum, should it be on the November 3rd, 2026 election or

[2:01:26] the April 6, 2027 election? What term term limit should be considered? Should the term limit policy take account for

[2:01:34] non-consecutive terms? And should the term I take off that last vote.

[2:01:37] All right. Well, then those are because it's it can only be prospective. Yes. Thanks.

[2:01:47] We'll stop this. Okay.

[2:01:53] So, that's the information that we put together. So, I will hand it back over to you guys to discuss. Great. Thank you.

[2:01:58] Thank you. Um, so I think it's important to reiterate that this is more a question of what's best for the

[2:02:06] community. Obviously, it doesn't impact any of the people sitting around this table um at the moment. and uh we should

[2:02:13] figure out what structure best serves Highland Park over the long term. Um I appreciate what the League of Women

[2:02:20] Voters has to say, which is essentially you leave it to the voters. Um and to have an arbitrary deadline. We know from

[2:02:29] the research um might make it harder for people to represent the community.

[2:02:34] They're more dependent, as I understand it, on um staff. Not to diminish staff.

[2:02:40] You guys are awesome. But consultants and uh yeah, I'm just open to hearing what people have to say. I personally

[2:02:48] believe voter choice is probably the most important thing, one of the most important Democratic principles that we can uphold. Um but clearly there's a

[2:02:57] question about term limits. I appreciate Skoi. Was George Van Dusen in office for 40 years?

[2:03:03] Um or 44?

[2:03:06] It's quite a while. So, um, yeah, but I believe in our voters. So, curious to hear what others have to say. Council

[2:03:13] member, so um I have always philosophically believed in term limits um for many many

[2:03:21] years and um I think um it's a really wonderful step that we could take. It

[2:03:28] does it does not reflect on the fact that we haven't had good leadership. I do think it's a wonderful way to let the

[2:03:36] voters decide and to bring new leadership and energy more openly into the process. And what I

[2:03:44] mean by that is the following. We are going to leave it to the voters if we bring this to referendum because the voters will either say we do want term

[2:03:52] limits or they don't. It's a restriction like any other restriction. You have to be 18 years old to vote. So to me it's

[2:04:01] just one more restriction assuming voters go forward with it or they don't.

[2:04:07] Um, I would love to see and I think we have a wonderful process in place already whereby we have advisory groups

[2:04:15] and we have um commissions and we appoint people and they spend two years, four years and we have limits on how

[2:04:23] long they can serve in those positions because we want to rotate additional people into those appointments and

[2:04:31] that's a great feeding ground from which and I know you're not supposed to word feeding but it's a great sender principle where when someone already is

[2:04:40] somewhat familiar with the city's government by serving on a commission or an advisory group, they then might be interested in running for city council.

[2:04:48] And I I think it's wonderful the interaction, for example, we had this year with historic preservation committee uh commission, excuse me,

[2:04:55] directly. So, it's that kind of a thing where we're we want to include more and

[2:05:01] more people. And I think and it it's no one's fault, but incumbency is daunting.

[2:05:09] Um, if we've run for office before, we know what it takes in terms of raising money, how much energy it takes, going

[2:05:18] through lists, doing it for the first time. getting someone's name out there is very difficult and it it's a credit

[2:05:26] to our current elected officials um of how much energy I've seen all of us put

[2:05:33] into this type of process and on other boards. Um but I think we should be leaders in our town and I think that we should leave it to the voters to decide.

[2:05:45] Um I think that there are there's a name recognition advantage, a fundraising advantage. Um it's institutional

[2:05:53] visibility that we receive every single Shouldn't we wait until that

[2:06:00] he wanted to be part of the conversation?

[2:06:12] You know what? Maybe we just call him on your cell phone and just let him Do you have it on WhatsApp? Do you have WhatsApp to call him? Because it may not go through if you don't.

[2:06:21] I mean, he's out of the country.

[2:06:23] No, [snorts] it worked before. He called before.

[2:06:25] Yeah, we need

[2:06:40] good. That's a good sign. Yeah, that's the right way. Okay, I'm on.

[2:06:47] Okay, great. All right, I'm gonna Yes.

[2:06:52] So, I'm [clears throat] going to pick up with some of the You hear me? Yep, we can hear you.

[2:06:57] I don't know if you can hear us, Andre, but council member, we are I'm going through a couple of points that I think are really important. And um you know I

[2:07:06] don't like the idea necessarily of limiting someone but I think the way to

[2:07:13] get people realistically to participate is to give them the opportunity to plan to know when there will be vacancies to

[2:07:22] know that they may have an option of running against someone who's truly their peer rather than having served for

[2:07:28] so many years that it's difficult to overcome that advantage.

[2:07:34] And so in the hopes of getting more people involved um more families and and people who

[2:07:42] haven't yet been a part of this um I think that's some of the the issues for

[2:07:49] bringing them on um experienced officials. I would like to see people run for another office, get to know it.

[2:07:59] I don't want to lose the institutional memory we've had. I I really would like to see um people after they serve coming

[2:08:07] back whether that's in an advisory capacity or serving on a board or or serving in a different office because um

[2:08:17] the way I envision this I I think we do need to develop our bench. I think it takes a couple of years to get up and

[2:08:26] running. And so obviously unlike some of the communities that have two-year terms and limited then to two terms at two

[2:08:33] years which is only four years four years that you can serve it takes I really think between open meetings act and Illinois parameters and

[2:08:42] constitutionality and knowing our structure in terms of advisory groups. I I would be very much in favor of um two full terms plus any partial appointment.

[2:08:54] And that would be separate and apart for the office of mayor because in fact

[2:09:02] which would in theory someone could serve for 20 years because they would have in theory uh 10 years if they were

[2:09:10] appointed to a position to fill a term and then two full terms as a council member. actually it would be I'm sorry

[2:09:18] 18 18 and then two full years as a mayor in theory and I don't think being on one

[2:09:26] we should bar the other office I think they should um really not feed off again but be a part of it all um I think

[2:09:36] there's some things to consider in terms of a break in service but actually I I think that that's a long time and so

[2:09:44] that would be what I would be thinking in terms of terms.

[2:09:49] So if there were a break in service, it would not restart the clock or is it a cumul cumulative like if you think about Dan Pierce and RA racing both going back

[2:09:58] and forth breaks, right?

[2:09:59] That's a policy question. You could do it either way and I'm advocating further discussion.

[2:10:05] I I think that um frankly uh feeling like we had 10 as city council and then in theory eight, I think that's

[2:10:13] sufficient. But if someone didn't do the full four and four or whatever, I think it's something to take into um account.

[2:10:22] Um [clears throat] I think that eligibility rules for govern well, excuse me for one minute.

[2:10:29] Um we have procedural rules and qualifications and I think that this is

[2:10:36] just one more of those. Um, additionally, um, elected office belongs to the public. I don't view this as a

[2:10:46] job. I view it as public service. And I think in order to get more people into

[2:10:53] public service and knowing that it's temporary, we will also garner additional interest. And I think it

[2:11:01] strengthens an institution to rotate through. And so, mayor, to your point about a break, that's why I think that should be further discussed.

[2:11:10] But I don't think that government should become totally dependent on one or one group of officials. I think it's better

[2:11:19] to to have a deeper bench and to bring people up and train them.

[2:11:25] It cultivates future leaders. It avoids a concentration of influence by one group. I like policy statements by the

[2:11:34] League of Women Voters and other governmental groups, but um many of the groups that I looked at, including the

[2:11:42] Paul Simon Institute, um they really have very strong position statements in favor of term limits. [clears throat]

[2:11:52] I think that fresh perspectives, newer perspectives will improve our governance here.

[2:12:00] Um and every type of leadership structure benefits from renewal.

[2:12:07] um you know incumbents are reelected at very high rates but what I the statistics that I looked at with regard

[2:12:16] to these types of uh referenda showed that um passage of 50% of those

[2:12:25] 20 I believe that started um back in 2014

[2:12:31] um 50% of those passed by over 80% from the public and um the other 50% passed

[2:12:40] by over 60% by the public. And so in these times I think it's important for

[2:12:48] us to know what the public [clears throat] is sensing um and and to start looking at oversight

[2:12:56] and transparency and recruitment of newer Highland Parkers. I think we've had a huge influx influx of people and I

[2:13:05] think we lead by example and that's why I think it's very important for us as a group to put this on the ballot rather

[2:13:13] than asking another group to do it. I think we're and then we can see I also think it's very important that we do it

[2:13:21] for this August so that it's on the November ballot. Number one, more people will vote in November. And number two,

[2:13:29] um I don't want it to coincide with when we are up for reelection. I think that's unfair to those of us, and I'm not, but

[2:13:39] to many who are up for reelection. And I don't think that they should have to face that as an obstacle at the time.

[2:13:46] It'll be a question and and so when they run, that's right.

[2:13:50] Do you support this? Do you not support this? Right.

[2:13:52] It'll be part of their debate. But that's why I think by doing it in November, it doesn't at all overlap with our have city council elections. And

[2:14:02] that's very I think it gives everybody the best benefit of that. And it also shows other boards and elected officials that we take this very seriously.

[2:14:11] I know there are several um individuals on school boards right now who are watching very closely what we do because

[2:14:18] they want to institute something similar. And I know that the park district has some of those commissioners. And Illinois having as

[2:14:27] many bodies as we do and certainly Highland Park, I think we lead by example. And so it's one of the reasons

[2:14:34] that I support this as an initiative, as a referendum initiated by the city council for the November election with

[2:14:43] limits uh with um getting the work done by August in order to do that. And um I

[2:14:51] I do think that those limits, but I uh in terms of two full terms plus um uh

[2:14:59] any partial term under the 25 months, which is the language I think they used in Lake Zurich and in a couple of other

[2:15:05] places um should be what what we really take. I will say that Skoi did it with

[2:15:12] the three terms. Um they didn't even have staggered terms.

[2:15:17] So I think they were facing a very different thing. Highland Park, I think, is in a much better place. We have staggered terms already there. So, it's

[2:15:25] not like we're going to lose half of our institutional memory. We're not going to lose it anyhow because we're starting at zero if this passes. But, um, even with

[2:15:35] that, I think we're still in a much further ahead place than Skoi was. But, I do want to see us consider this as a

[2:15:42] council so we can lead for our community. And it's it's really meant in a very positive light. um to just help others get in there too.

[2:15:52] Um would you want the resolution to and I don't know if we can do this include the school boards and include the park

[2:16:00] district. Can we put a resolution on recommending term limits for all local governments if that's something

[2:16:07] the city council cannot um it would be for government residents can that there would be a there could be a resident

[2:16:15] petition but not we govern ourselves and I I don't I would not be in favor of that mayor and the reason is that I

[2:16:22] think I'd like to start with us as the leaders in the council and then if other governmental bodies want to seek have

[2:16:30] the similar expertise and drafting, then it's there and they have a model should they choose to follow it.

[2:16:37] Tony, um I think my feelings about um term limits have been expressed publicly both

[2:16:45] uh informally. Uh I know that I've made comments on social media, so it won't be a secret that I generally don't favor

[2:16:53] term limits. Um, and the reason I don't favor term limits are really for the reasons you just raised, which is the

[2:17:03] value of having a deep bench of people taking the time to be on commissions to understanding how our government works,

[2:17:11] uh, to getting to know the people involved in government, preparing themselves for the process of being on city council, and then once you get on city council, there's a learning curve.

[2:17:20] Um, as a person who has not had a terrible challenge trying to get reelected over the years and some years being completely unopposed, I've never

[2:17:28] had to spend a lot of money. Um, but I'm also aware that um, if you put term limits out there, you do exactly what you have previously advocated against.

[2:17:40] You limit the choice of residents. And as you aptly pointed out, um these jobs

[2:17:48] are uh the are are proprietarily our residents. They should get to choose who

[2:17:56] they want to represent them. This is a representative government. We're here to make policy. Um it's taken a long time,

[2:18:03] I think, for all of us to learn how things operate and to become more efficient at it. And I I think it

[2:18:11] although I did not contemplate serving more than two years when I started out, two terms uh two terms uh when I started out uh I

[2:18:21] was actually persuaded to run for a third term by uh people who are very much in favor of term limits.

[2:18:31] The problem with term limits and whatever it is you're seeking to fix, it works both ways.

[2:18:39] um you can wind up with somebody representing you who you very much want to stay there, who's doing a great job

[2:18:46] as far as you're concerned, who suddenly can't serve anymore. Um preceding me uh were council members uh who had been on

[2:18:55] our city council for very long periods of time. I think Steve Mandel had served for more than 20 years or around 20 years

[2:19:02] 16. Uh Jim Kersh had been here for a long time and and I will say that without Jim on the city council, it

[2:19:10] would have been much harder to to find my footing. Uh and to to have somebody like that around for a long time who

[2:19:17] really understood how things operated was very important. Um, uh, Mike Brener was on for a very, very long time, was

[2:19:26] very reliable as a representative of the community, and I think it would be terrible not to have that uh, as a city council

[2:19:33] to have that kind of stability. Um, you also run the risk of creating lane ducks in in uh, your council members who have

[2:19:43] reached the end of their term limits, and I would hate to see that happen. Um,

[2:19:49] so while I understand the argument that maybe it's hard to run for office against an incumbent, you know, the we

[2:19:57] had an election recently where five or six people ran for council and a number of incumbents were not reelected. Um, so

[2:20:06] it's it's not that daunting. Uh, at least from my perception, I I've not

[2:20:14] made any extraordinary effort to try to stay on the council. I've run because people have asked me to run. I've made

[2:20:21] it known that I'm running, and I spend just enough money to let it be known in the community that I'm running, but I I haven't uh aggressively tried to defend

[2:20:30] my seat. Um, I've certainly done things and and voted in ways that I'm sure make people unhappy.

[2:20:37] um we all have. Um and there are people who have run for city council because they're motivated by that and I think

[2:20:45] that's a great motivation. Um so for all those reasons, I'm really not in favor of term limits. Um in terms of how and

[2:20:54] when to do a referendum, I I I really I don't want to weigh in on that. I I think the question of whether to have a referendum or not is a different

[2:21:02] question. Um I think it is the question.

[2:21:05] I guess it is. I would prefer I guess if it is if it is that urgent I would rather see that come from the public.

[2:21:14] That's an interesting point. Thank you.

[2:21:16] Um thank you for sort of highlighting the the history of who's been here. Um, as

[2:21:24] somebody who ran against Mike Brunner 20 years, Steve Mandal 16 years, Jim Kersh 12 years, and came in first place, I

[2:21:32] know how hard it is to run against three incumbents. Yeah. Whose race is being run by the mayor.

[2:21:37] Um, but here I am. I made it onto the council and then made it into the mayor's seat. Um I think one of the

[2:21:44] things that we're not talking about is um unfortunately the piece about

[2:21:51] seniority beyond the city council. So this city is a member of a council of governments called the Northwest

[2:21:59] Municipal Conference. They are our voice along with 42 other communities in Springfield and to some extent in

[2:22:08] Washington. That group then participates in something called the Metropolitan Mayor's Caucus and the Illinois Municipal League. These are all

[2:22:15] organizations that have been fighting for us about different bills, bringing all that information that we've heard about in terms of the Build Act, in

[2:22:25] terms of ebikes. And what's interesting is little old Highland Park because we were involved with those organizations

[2:22:33] was able to provide Lrod Freriedman's great well-written law about ebikes that then became I think the foundation for what the state is now talking about.

[2:22:43] Without seniority, people can't really participate meaningfully in those councils of government in that municipal

[2:22:51] league. It's very hard. and and believe me, I look at some of these folks who have been on there for a long long time and I think there's nobody else in your

[2:22:59] community who can run and represent, but I just share that because I think it's a little bit more of a shadow issue that

[2:23:07] may not be out there. Um, look, it's been my my privilege and my honor to serve this community always and it's

[2:23:14] where I grew up. So, it's my joy to be here. Um, but I just I agree with you, Toby. I just believe strongly in elections. Um, I believe strongly in

[2:23:23] voters's choice. I think having an arbitrary deadline given, and this is going to sound insane, but how many years did it take us to get the sidewalk built on Sheridan Road? 13, 14 years.

[2:23:36] Um, I just shared with you earlier when we were talking about the place of remembrance that we've been talking about changing Port Clinton since 2009.

[2:23:45] Um, solo cup 2009. There are glacial paces that apply sometimes that I think are helpful. And I know that you

[2:23:53] yourself value having been on the school board for was it eight years and then as school board president and now on city council.

[2:24:02] So um you know serving in elected office for eight years each time.

[2:24:08] So each office two decades essentially at this point.

[2:24:12] Um, I do raise one concern and that is in the last municipal election it was uncontested.

[2:24:19] So, I hope there's a group of people interested in running and there's a whole other conversation that maybe

[2:24:26] hasn't been brought up today about wards and making [clears throat] sure that we have geographic representation.

[2:24:31] Um, so I just think there are a lot of challenges before us in terms of what's best for the community is representation. What's best for the

[2:24:40] community are people who um bring context and understanding and and again appreciate the service of many people

[2:24:48] here on commissions prior to running for city council. Um I'm going to call Bissa and then I'll call on John. Okay.

[2:24:56] Thank you. And you uh so my first point was actually going to be the election that we ran in last year that we were um

[2:25:03] on. So that was my first thought. But I mean, as I as we've started talking about this, I have seen that the community now is interested in this

[2:25:11] topic. I saw there was a a social media post, so people are interested in what we're what we're doing here. Um, a lot of my comments have already been

[2:25:18] mentioned that um I'm I'm concerned about the institutional knowledge that we would might lose. Um, and we need to

[2:25:26] be sure that the fresh start term limits um don't uh provide uh doesn't come at a cost of the expertise that we need to

[2:25:34] run our city. Um and since that's could be a concern and then I look at um Skoi for example and that I actually had a

[2:25:42] question for staff on Skoi um and other home home rule communities. Have we seen data um on how these limits have

[2:25:49] impacted the bench of candidates? Um are there more people interested in running or do we have that information?

[2:25:55] It's in new Ski I can Ski's attorney. I can answer that.

[2:26:01] Skooking just adopted in this last um um uh election last year the term and they

[2:26:07] did they also adopted wards um and they adopted rank choice voting. So they did three things in this past election. The

[2:26:16] fruits of that labor are still remain to be seen.

[2:26:20] Okay. So that was just I was curious on that whether this the term limits brought more people out to vote to run for office or had the opposite effect that you were they weren't seeing much.

[2:26:30] So that was one question I had. Um and then also I mean has [clears throat] been mentioned you know elections are the most direct form of term limits in

[2:26:38] my opinion which have been mentioned. Um and that's definitely a change a mindset change for the voters in Highland Park moving forward if we do put in term

[2:26:46] limits. Um but then again I know that the um community does seem interested in this. Um, but if we were to do term

[2:26:55] limits, I would be more in favor of 12 years because I think you need to be at you you need more than eight years. Um, personally, I'm not in favor of term

[2:27:04] limits, but um, that's kind of where I'm at, though. So, it's my my thoughts. Great. Thank you, John.

[2:27:10] Thank you. Um, [clears throat] so first of all, uh, I'll sort of start with my conclusion and then give some

[2:27:18] some thoughts behind it. I I do think we should initiate this referendum and we should do it sooner rather than later. I I agree with Council Member Lor's point

[2:27:26] about it being on the November ballot is important so that it is not um intermixed with any of this group

[2:27:34] needing to uh rerun for office and with voter turnout getting the most input possible. We know that historically more people voted in the November than the

[2:27:41] April election. Um I I think we operate in a broken system that inherently

[2:27:47] creates barriers to entry for positions of power and that's not on by accident and right so we look at a list of

[2:27:55] government agencies it's no surprise that only five of them have term limit because everybody wants to protect themselves in their seats of power so I

[2:28:03] I I think we need to be leaders in this regard I don't care what other communities are

[2:28:10] doing it's [laughter] It's not surprising that they're not that they're not on that list and so we

[2:28:17] should think be more proactive in this regard and and and hopefully others will

[2:28:23] follow. I every good organization has leadership changes. I've sat on boards

[2:28:30] with term limits. Ideas get stale, leaders get complacent. That is just the nature of operations.

[2:28:40] appropriate change management um effective transition planning needs to be put in place to to derisk the institutional handoff risk, right?

[2:28:51] Like yes, that's part of it, but if you plan for it, you can appropriately ensure that that doesn't become a problem moving forward.

[2:29:02] With respect to expediency of getting things done, I actually think with term limits, we maybe have more incentive to get things done more quickly and you're

[2:29:09] not going to that kind of goes back into the complacency thing.

[2:29:12] Oh, John, we move as fast as humanly [laughter] possible here at the city of So, um

[2:29:19] I I can't read most of my writing, but uh I think let me just make sure I got everything.

[2:29:30] Yeah, I mean I I think I think that that sort of covers it, right? I I I think there's you can argue on both sides of this for sure. I I heard I heard what

[2:29:38] you guys said about that side of the table.

[2:29:40] Um I I think about my personal experience in serving in organizations and and advising organizations, both

[2:29:48] nonfor-profit and for-profit organizations. And all good ones have leadership changes. All good ones have

[2:29:56] term limits for their boards. I don't think we should be any different.

[2:29:59] Okay, um thank you. Um I want to share that having worked super super hard

[2:30:09] each time harder than the last time to get elected to this office and finally won a seat just three years ago. Uh term

[2:30:16] limits was not on my radar at this moment in time. Um but um and I I also

[2:30:26] want to say that um you know I've I've lived here for 28 years. I've been incredibly involved here serving in a

[2:30:34] lot of different ways. Um was finally able to prevail, but I didn't have the elementary, middle, and high school classmates that knew me. And I think

[2:30:41] it's just harder for anyone who didn't grow up here. Um and uh but you as one

[2:30:50] when one of our council colleagues proposed it, my first thought really was that I have long believed in term limits generally. So how could I speak against

[2:30:59] them simply because it applied to me? I can't just accept myself from this. Um nobody should have a lifetime position

[2:31:07] in government in my opinion um in the private sector nonprofits. I think it is different actually. I think um I I

[2:31:14] disagree a little bit there uh that I think nonprofits really uh depend on you

[2:31:21] know longer serving members um but unless there is an opening on council and I have deep experience with this uh

[2:31:30] people don't even bother to run uh the power of incumbency is considered insurmountable for for many um and uh I

[2:31:41] will say as far as training goes We've had two we've had members of council hasn't served on commissions or advisory groups. this office is open to anyone

[2:31:48] who wishes you know to run obviously uh that uh I've seen a lot in our community in

[2:31:56] terms of service and from what I saw on district 112 school board there can be big transitions such as you know a new

[2:32:06] for example I mean new superintendent new leader of a governmental body or a major referendum that transforms a

[2:32:13] district um and I saw that superintendents and uh you know tend to prefer to work with elected officials who they have strong working

[2:32:21] relationships with and know the institution well. Uh which is why I believe we should give strong

[2:32:27] consideration to three terms. Um I I I'm not wedded to that but I I and I

[2:32:35] understand that that's not the point tonight, right? Is not which whether it's two terms or three terms. It's it's

[2:32:43] just why I believe that um and uh that

[2:32:50] also besides the institutional knowledge there's um you know uh I think yeah I I

[2:32:57] think not just of myself or not of myself really but of current and future council members who might be in their

[2:33:04] you know 30s uh as well as old colleagues who ran for third terms primarily to support you know the the

[2:33:12] institution at a time of huge change and transformation and we have I think it seems like we have a choice tonight of whether term limits is something we as a

[2:33:21] council want to advance or whether a citizens group will advance it and I would rather and I would pose the question wouldn't we rather see council

[2:33:29] lead on that um I think that it sends a better message to our community um and I honestly believe that a citizens group

[2:33:38] won't have a problem getting this on the ballot but I still think that that it is it is a better message to our community that you know we're not we don't

[2:33:47] consider ourselves infallible because we're not infallible. Um that you know we understand that there's a shelf life

[2:33:54] to everybody. Um I uh and I happen to believe based on what I hear on the radio and read in the media that there

[2:34:02] is uh growing support for term limits in in general. um not you know just in our

[2:34:10] community but across the nation um you know you it it's it's a topic of

[2:34:17] discussion about you know Supreme Court the Senate and the Congress and and I

[2:34:24] just think it's it's something that um people are interested in.

[2:34:29] Okay. So Andre Yeah. Hi. Um yeah. So

[2:34:35] you know uh to me this is an inclusion issue. Um and when um and what what when

[2:34:43] when do we call something an inclusion issue? We call it an inclusion issue when we don't see the diversity that

[2:34:50] reflects our community and uh and and when I mean the diversity I mean everything you know age, generational

[2:34:57] experience levels, functional areas, race, ethnicity, gender, you know, religious background, all that, right?

[2:35:04] And um and so I always have been in favor of succession and termining

[2:35:12] leadership for a lot of reasons. One of them is there's a lot of people with a lot of skills and a lot of different backgrounds, a lot of different

[2:35:20] perspectives that do not have a chance to really have a a fighting chance if you will often even though you you you

[2:35:29] know some of you have given examples of, you know, challengers that did win. But in general, you know, when you don't

[2:35:36] have a diversity that of a community reflected, there's something systemic going on. None of them are level one way at all. It systems get to place for a

[2:35:46] reason and then they get calcified and they kind of favor those that have benefited from it for whatever different reasons and then to challenge those already in power which is the incumbent.

[2:35:56] The power incumbency is a very real structural systemic thing and term limit is a structural way to address the

[2:36:04] downside of structure that has to be there but sometimes it just reinforces you know uh the lack of change or lack

[2:36:11] of fresh ideas and a lack of new voices and all that. So, uh, we don't have as much diversity on the city council as we should given the kind of city we are.

[2:36:21] And I'm talking, like I said, diversity in every possible different ways. And I believe that term limits would be a

[2:36:27] systematic structural way to clear the way on a regular basis for new voices to come in and to some points I've already

[2:36:36] made. You know, you the net seems very stacked against you just because you don't have the power [clears throat] coming to you. you don't have the the

[2:36:44] financial support, you don't have um you know the networks that an incumbent does develop appropriately, then it just feels like well it's just too hard. You

[2:36:53] know, why should I go for it? But if there's a a kind of a refresh, a reboot and um and people have a chance to say,

[2:37:00] hey, you know what, the deck is clear that I can compete head-to-head with those that haven't been entrenched in it for so long. I think that's a very good

[2:37:09] thing. I think it's reflective of Highland Park's, you know, commitment to inclusion and diversity and equity and and this is the main reason why I would

[2:37:17] be uh in favor of it. And you know, we we see that term limits exist on boards,

[2:37:24] term limits exist in many um positions and even in appointments, not not all of them. And lately in the last decade, we

[2:37:33] have seen the the the problem with the lack of succession and the lack of moving on and lack of fresh blood. And

[2:37:42] and and the other thing about having term limits, it would force those of us who are in elected office who are hitting the term limit to really rather

[2:37:51] than focus on our power and our continuity for us to look at mentoring and sponsoring the next generation of

[2:38:00] leaders. And I can't think of a better way to have impact that is legacy based on one's own ideas and policies and

[2:38:09] contributions to rather than feel that we have to carry the torch of that to really nurture the next generation that

[2:38:16] can carry out in a fresh way and a next generation way in a diverse way and for a longer period of time. So I think that

[2:38:25] fundamentally structurally, you know, term limits is an inclusion um response to um to the the our desire to be more

[2:38:34] diverse and reflective the community that we represent. So I'm in favor of of of uh of this.

[2:38:39] Thank you for making that assertion. I'm sort of laughing because if you look in the hallway at the pictures of the city council, when I became mayor, I am

[2:38:48] surrounded by six men. And so I just want to share with you that we are now 5050 women men on the council. I hate to

[2:38:58] call people out by their identities, but two are people of color. At least two have disabilities that I'm aware of. And I think that inclusion has been a

[2:39:06] wonderful part of the colleagues that I've been serving with. So having come on um when there was what I derisively

[2:39:15] called the chick seat, there was one woman regularly on this council. Uh I became the second woman on this council

[2:39:23] and then became mayor with six men. I think uh inclusion has already been at the forefront of how we've recruited and

[2:39:30] supported and built the bench and put people on commissions and and and really made that a priority and and we continue to do that with our commissions as well.

[2:39:40] Uh that's not a free-for-all. That is an absolute um value that we really pursue when we're putting people on our

[2:39:47] commissions. That being said, I think it's also important to note uh that there have been a lot of assertions made this evening, but specifically um there

[2:39:56] are term limits in fewer than 85% of municipalities in this country. So, yep, you can be at the forefront of a new

[2:40:05] trend, but as far as smaller cities and municipal governments, term limits are unusual. That being said, my sense is

[2:40:12] that the majority of this group is seeking to have a resolution for a referendum on term limits um November

[2:40:20] 3rd on the November 3rd, 2026 ballot. So um what I see is and what I'm hearing is

[2:40:27] four people are in favor, three people are not in favor necessarily. This isn't an actual action. This is a a request.

[2:40:37] And so I my sense, Steve, is that we want to have a resolution in an upcoming meeting where people will be voting to

[2:40:44] put a referendum on the November 3rd, 2026 ballot, Tony.

[2:40:49] So does that referendum have to specify what kind of term limits we're going to have?

[2:40:54] Yeah. So two terms or three terms you and how long is it can we change the There are a number of if if the threshold question has been met that we

[2:41:03] want to proceed with the resolution. Now there we'll have another conversation about the specifics or you want to get those details right now?

[2:41:10] Whatever [clears throat] you guys may how long you guys want to eat dinner.

[2:41:15] [laughter]

[2:41:16] We could we have time August August is the deadline and so we could schedule this for another committee of the whole to dive into those details

[2:41:25] the two terms or the three terms and then we'll put on a and I just want to close by saying as I've said at the beginning I personally believe that voter choice is one of the

[2:41:34] most democratic principles we have the end from Nancy. Yes.

[2:41:38] I just had two quick statements about Sure. First of all, um, when we think about this for two or three terms, I think one of the things to take into

[2:41:46] account, we have a very able city manager and staff. They in many ways are

[2:41:54] the institutional memory of how things work and we are the policy makers and sometimes you want more policy change.

[2:42:03] And so it worries me less to know that I have an institutional memory and a phenomenal staff that has backed up

[2:42:11] various councils before us. So that's number one on it and and that goes to

[2:42:18] two or three terms two or three um terms. So you support two two terms?

[2:42:24] I support two terms plus under 25 months meaning if someone else 10 years.

[2:42:31] Yes. And the mayor is the same.

[2:42:34] Uh the mayor I would think would probably be two terms, but if it's two years plus 25, I think it's just So you want to be consistent between

[2:42:41] careful when you say the same. It it but it's a separate office. Separate office. Separate office. Same.

[2:42:48] And it would not borrow one from the other. In other words, if someone were a council member for 10 years,

[2:42:55] they could then run for mayor. Someone was the mayor for 10 years. In theory, they could then run for council.

[2:43:02] The other issue that needs to be resolved at some point is is consecutive versus a total, right? Do you want cumulative or do you

[2:43:10] want consecutive people coming and going?

[2:43:14] I think it should be cumulative, but that doesn't Let's figure this out for a minute. If it's cumulative, you could do four years, go off the council,

[2:43:23] go for another four, and then someone could appoint you because maybe they think of you as the institutional memory.

[2:43:29] Um, and so it would be over a longer duration, but it would still be a total of 10 or it could be four form two, so 10 in a

[2:43:38] row. So I You mean John Andre?

[2:43:43] I think either cumulative I don't know that seems kind of complicated. [laughter]

[2:43:51] I think you know just to keep track it's I think it's just consecutive

[2:43:59] consecutive to so you could serve 10 years go off for two years come back for another 10. But that's what that's what consecutive just

[2:44:07] to make it clear that's is that what you mean council member Tavia consecutive versus cumulative that means that someone could come back and serve another 10 in

[2:44:15] if they take period okay I'm cumulative I'm I agree I agree cumulative cumulative seen that happen

[2:44:23] you never know you never know as again I think council member Tommy you were just I don't want to put words in your mouth but were you speaking to council member litterer's

[2:44:32] example of potentially taking a break and sort of still having time. You're trying to avoid that from a complexity perspective.

[2:44:40] Yeah. What's the complex part?

[2:44:42] Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I think the term, you know, maybe maybe I mean, why don't give staff the chance to kind of now do

[2:44:50] the research, see what other options are out there, and we can get into more terms. I agree. I And I'm not ready to commit to the number of terms.

[2:45:00] Okay. Yeah.

[2:45:03] Okay. And then do you want to come back after council to talk about 445 central or how do you want to I can just do a quick update at the city council meeting. Okay.

[2:45:11] Sounds good. All right. Seeking a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. All in favor say I. I. Thank you.

[2:45:19] High Bye.