Committee of the Whole Meeting 06/08/2026
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E79PaOrxIQ
Automatic captions; not audio-verified.

[7:07] We're going to priced it right.

[7:08] We're going to call to order the committee of the whole for the city of Highland Park, Illinois. It is June 8th, 2027. Will the clerk please call the role?

[7:16] Council [clears throat] member center pres.

[7:19] Council member Ross here.

[7:20] Council member Tapio present.

[7:22] Council member Lart here. Council member Bloomberg here. Mayor here. Um I just want to say good evening and welcome and thanks everybody for

[7:31] joining us. Um each of us understands and deeply appreciates the responsibility and the importance of the

[7:38] work that's been done to date including the research, the discussion and most importantly the community engagement.

[7:45] Um, as we've mentioned in the past, we've identified three primary objectives for the place of remembrance,

[7:52] to create an accessible public place for reflection, remembrance, and solace. to honor the community's resiliency,

[8:00] especially those who were injured, and importantly to pay tribute to the memories of Katie Goldstein, Arena McCarthy, Kevin Michael McCarthy, Steven

[8:09] Strauss, Jackie Loi Sunheim, Nicholas Toedo, and Eduardo Ivaldo. I'm going to ask us all to take a moment of silence

[8:18] in honor of these beloved members of our community.

[8:35] Thank you. Um, one of the first actions of the working group was to adopt a set

[8:42] of values to guide their work. These values complement our intention to undertake a trauma-informed process and to cultivate space for open discussion,

[8:51] exchange of ideas, and respect. These values are inclusion, transparency, respect and value all opinions,

[9:00] recognize that the outcome will last for decades into the future. And members of the public have been and continue to be welcome to attend each of these

[9:09] meetings, and we've benefited tremendously from public feedback at our previous discussions. We know from previous meetings, from conversations

[9:17] with other communities that have traveled this path, from our own experiences, that this is a complex, emotional topic and process. In line

[9:26] with the third value, it's critical that we maintain our compassion for each other, for our community, and for all who've been impacted by the shooting so

[9:35] we can move forward in this process as one Highland Park. Uh we also know that these conversations may rekindle trauma and strong emotions. they have in the

[9:44] past. Um, please know that the city's resiliency division is available and present to provide assistance to people directly impacted by the shooting,

[9:52] including short-term counseling, resources, referrals, case management, needs assessments, and more. Uh, we are here for you. Um, and with that, I now turn to our agenda.

[10:13] Good afternoon, mayor and councel. As we move forward in this place of remembrance process, we'll just take you through the next steps of what we're discussing tonight. Um, we've already

[10:22] covered the objectives and the values that are associated with the working group that have been guiding the process from the beginning. But as we move forward today, we'll talk about the

[10:31] phase two um sorry phase two engagement summary and a unified design concept as it relates to the rose garden that'll be

[10:38] presented by our design team and their communications partner. So that'll be presented by SWA and al together we'll

[10:46] start with going over the rose garden and then we'll have a discussion about Port Clinton and as we look forward to this and we'll

[10:54] discuss the policy considerations and hopefully receive direction from you as far as where you'd like to go with next steps and then we can talk about the

[11:02] next steps in the process as we move forward.

[11:06] So we'll start with that. I'll turn it over to our design team and communications partner.

[11:20] We'll come over here because we're going to present together. We'll do a combination. Not sure what that is. Um a

[11:25] combination of place of uh Oh, thank you. Okay. um combination of

[11:33] the Rose Garden and for Clinton together summarizing engagement and then the direction. Can you just introduce yourself? Yes, absolutely.

[11:41] Um my name is Christian. I'm a brand strategist all together studio. We're based here at Evston, Illinois.

[11:47] Ben Waldo, landscape architect with SWA based in St. Paul, Minnesota.

[11:53] [clears throat]

[11:54] Awesome. So, we're going to go through again. Rose Garden, the phase 2 engagement summary, our fine concept, um an opinion on probable costs.

[12:02] [clears throat] Port will talk about Port Clinton in the phase two engagement summary findings as well as the approach next steps and have some questions in the session.

[12:10] Oh yeah, this is just where we are in the process right now. Um our our next

[12:17] milestone is uh coming before the historical preservation commission. Um and and then schematic design will be

[12:27] released shortly after that before we move into design development midsummer construction documentation fall into

[12:34] winter and then fitting in construction in 2027.

[12:40] Um, we want to start by thanking the community for its trust in us in this process. We want to let everyone know that every voice contributed to shaping

[12:48] what comes next. And we [clears throat] summarized all of that in the engagement summary. We're going to do a brief um overview today of everything. But if

[12:56] anyone is interested in reading the full support, it is available on hpremebrance.org.

[13:02] For continued engagement, people can reach out to remembrance@cityhil.com.

[13:10] for our engagement timeline for this. We started this around May where we had the

[13:18] community design concept survey. So last time we were here, SWA presented the designs and we went to the community and

[13:25] to all members and asked you know what do you think? We posted our design concepts for people to review and the full flipping book and then we had a

[13:34] survey where people could go and ask questions. We then went to the working group um with to hear their thoughts and opinions. We had some community

[13:42] workshops. We presented at committee of the whole. We did inerson business visits. And then we had tier one

[13:49] listening sessions. Um and those were done both in person and virtually um with those that are next of kin and present and injured.

[13:58] Um, we realized throughout this process, you know, as with everything, it is really hard for people to engage with this in person. But, so we found that

[14:06] the most valued engagement was having the concepts available online and people went through over and over again to view the concepts and then answer the

[14:14] surveys. Um, people really resonated with having the time to kind of look through each one and then gather their thoughts and then come back to us. So to

[14:23] this day we are still doing a little bit of engagement following up with tier one as they react to refined concepts and people are still viewing the concepts

[14:31] online. We had um a survey, we had the online concepts, listening sessions, made visits to local businesses, we held

[14:39] some phone calls, we had workshops that happened um in a large workshop setting.

[14:43] We also had some people where they could drop in at city hall and view the concepts and offer their feedback. We sent letters to those within 100 meters

[14:53] of um the primary and secondary sites and we had mentions in the newsletter, social media, print publications to try

[15:01] to get people to answer and respond to the concepts.

[15:06] At the Rose Garden, we presented three concepts woven together, mending lines and pedals.

[15:12] Concept one resonated the most strongly across every group.

[15:17] People love that it's nature-based. It has water, wind paths, trees, the seven niches, um, veering off spaces for

[15:25] private reflection. And they were described as meaningful and moving and appropriate.

[15:30] People like the ability to choose one's own path of walking through the space.

[15:33] They could go into the niches and have a bit of privacy. And they they were just walking down the straight path in the center. They didn't feel like they were bothering anyone. And they also didn't

[15:41] feel like they needed to kind of take one one singular route. um instead of what came out that they refined is

[15:49] instead of assigning names to each niche, they prefer that we bring them into collective symbolically that represented, you know, these people are

[15:56] still a part of our community. And it also makes so if you're sitting in a niche that belongs to one family member,

[16:04] you don't feel like you're invading if you are coming into that space or that's not not yours per se. Um we also saw

[16:12] that people wanted to acknowledge the people who were injured in a more significant way. Um, so we made some requirements to design the sign as you'll see. And then want to make sure

[16:19] that we have accessible parking nearby for easy use. That was probably the number one response is, you know, looking at the space, then looking at parking and how they would get into it and access it.

[16:32] Um, here's our feedback for each of the concepts. We ask people to say, how did it meet in phase one where we asked people say what's important to you?

[16:41] arrival, discovery, the space for the community acknowledgement. How did this design match up against those?

[16:48] Overwhelmingly, people felt that concept one met those criteria. Um, and then we asked them whether they liked it or

[16:54] didn't like it. Um, about 78% I believe strongly liked 73% strongly like this

[17:01] concept. Um, again, people said they love the niche set off for privacy, but you don't feel like you're imposing on anyone. um community felt like they felt

[17:09] a strong sense of connection to this space and they might use it for their intended purpose. People also love the sensory experience. He spoke about how

[17:17] their father loved birds and he would have loved sitting in the space watching the birds hearing the butterflies.

[17:22] Another thing that resonated just the sensory of the natural experiences around there. So you can hear birds, you can hear the wind, you don't feel like

[17:31] you're right in the center of downtown Highland Park. you've kind of gone away and you have that space to reflect and pray or use the space person how do you

[17:38] like some crosscutting themes no matter the concept accessibility is non-negotiable

[17:46] people resonate with smooth pathways the snow and salt and clearable surfaces no gravel adequate parking seating railings

[17:54] um they felt like safety and security should be felt this goes from the design having clear sightelines having lighting throughout the place natural brown

[18:03] boundaries created by plants and landscape features. They want us to consider the maintenance from the start.

[18:09] While people may love all the different features of design, they of also asked about is this going to be a burden for the city to maintain. What else do we

[18:18] need to consider here? Um, and while I may love this, it's okay if we get rid of something if it becomes a burden for people that are using the space or for

[18:25] the city to maintain. Um, and they want the space to work in every season. So you'll see we're going to show a little bit about how we've updated it to work

[18:32] and you know during day during night and fall winter spring how it look as it ages gracefully in the city.

[18:42] Thank you Christian just yeah [snorts] thank you. Uh so these

[18:51] were the the three schemes in plan um woven together on the left of course uh

[18:57] was the sort of consensus um choice for for the Rose Garden site. And so what

[19:04] we've been doing over the last month is um kind of building in [clears throat] some of those key things that we heard, taking the time to sort of uh see how we

[19:12] can kind of better better refine the space, better flow, uh kind of take the things that are working with that

[19:20] concept and and elevate them. Um so what we've done is sort of two two primary

[19:27] moves and and I will say as we go into this we're looking at um this through a lens of cost as well and so I'm going to be showing views of this with and

[19:36] without a water feature because uh that is sort of the most costly single element. So I want you all to as we go through this think about that. We'll

[19:45] look at an opinion of cost at the end of this um that kind of shows how that balances out with or without. Um the

[19:53] space itself doesn't change dramatically without the water feature. Uh but you know, you lose sort of the the sound of

[20:01] water, the experience of seeing running water, but um I we we think that it works both ways pretty well. So just keep that in mind as I go throughout.

[20:10] You'll see views with and without the water feature. The main things to consider with this um evolution of the design, the seven niches are still

[20:18] there. It's still framed by trees. You still have a naturalistic garden in the center with paths weaving back and forth

[20:24] across it. But we have added sort of a walking loop around the outside taking into consideration this idea that you

[20:32] know we want it to be just really clear when there's people using a niche that they have that space that

[20:41] themselves that there won't be any kind of awkward traffic moving through that.

[20:46] Um and then we also have increased the amount of framing trees to be 48 to represent the uh folks who were injured.

[20:55] um [clears throat] while their names aren't sort of listed at every single tree that that symbolism is now in the space and it kind of increases the depth of that that buffer

[21:03] around the space which is nice too. So in plan uh that feels like this. You could see that the 48 trees kind of expand to the the edge of the site now.

[21:14] Um you still have that sense of a path winding back and forth through the garden. Um but you do have this more

[21:21] kind of clear walking loop around the outside. Um, you still have the council ring. We have sort of just the council

[21:30] ring remaining from the rose garden because to fit the 48 trees in that pattern, we sort of expand into the existing rose garden footprint somewhat.

[21:39] And the entry experience is much the same as what we showed last time around as well.

[21:45] This is what it looks like with a water feature. So, the water feature we've imagined um there's sort of two two components. There's the circle in the

[21:54] council ring which is um similar to what was shown in the the uh preliminary scheme. Um but that just becomes kind of

[22:03] an individual reflecting pool here um similar to what was in the historic rose garden site um before that water feature

[22:11] was decommissioned. And then rather than a single line running straight down through the center of the space, we have

[22:18] um sort of a ring framing the garden, little foot bridges crossing into the garden. So that water would run sort of from the end of the site with the

[22:27] council ring towards the ravine and you'd have this sort of sound of water following you around the path. The names of the victims, I should note too, would

[22:35] be sort of here at the end of the water feature where it kind of widens out. Um, so there'd be stone panels along the base of that with the names of the seven

[22:43] victims rather than having them in each individual niche as Christian noted.

[22:52] And this is what the plan looks like with the water features included.

[23:00] So comparing the preliminary scheme and the refined scheme, um again you can kind of see that the the main difference

[23:09] is the addition of trees to total to 48 of the maples around the side. The seven

[23:16] niches remain. Um, and then the addition of the walking loop for clearer

[23:24] circulation with with less kind of bumping into the the niches as you move through.

[23:33] Uh, and we'll do a walk through. This follows essentially the same format that we took you on last time. Um, but just we'll give you a sense of of the refined space.

[23:46] Um, so the the entry experience is essentially the same as what we showed you previously.

[23:54] Uh, we we've also incorporated some views [clears throat] in different seasons here just so you get a sense of the the space throughout the year in winter.

[24:06] Uh, looking from the council ring out across the space. This is without the water feature as you can see.

[24:17] And with the water features and moving through the space, you have

[24:27] these niches kind of off the main path to your right and then these secondary paths that weave through the garden on

[24:34] your left. If you This would be taking kind of a a counterclockwise route around the space. And we haven't

[24:42] designed it so that there's one particular direction that you ought to walk. Um it's it's really up to the visitor.

[24:52] This is with the water feature.

[24:55] Um and you can see the niche here. We'll we'll zoom in on in on the particular design elements of that in a moment, but

[25:02] it features a a sort of highbacked wood bench um and a limestone table element um with

[25:11] kind of smaller subniches carved into it, little shelves.

[25:17] So, the way we thought about the niche was that, you know, we're imagining brick paving on this main path and that

[25:25] that could kind of spiral into these spaces.

[25:28] Um, if [clears throat] there were water, it would sort of feel kind of related to that almost like a like a pool eddying

[25:36] on the side of a a stream. Um, and within that sort of stone table on in

[25:44] the center, we imagine that there could be a light element. Um, and that light would come out through sort of designed windows or or sort of mini niches within

[25:53] that element. So, at night, it's kind of casting out uh little um lantern beams.

[26:01] Um, the dimensions of the space, it's about 14 ft across. It gets a little bit wider

[26:08] towards the back to accommodate uh ADA companion seating next to the bench. Um but uh the the stone table is about 4 ft

[26:16] and then the path around the space is 6 ft in each niche. Yeah.

[26:24] I'm sorry. The seating capacity as well.

[26:26] Uh it's probably about if you include the the ADA companion seating, it's it's probably about 12 um tight. But if

[26:36] people had space, it's probably about 6 to 8, I would say. Yeah.

[26:51] So, as you get to the rear of the space, there's another longer bench, similar design language, highbacked wood bench.

[26:58] Um, and so the ravine is right behind you here, and you're just kind of looking back out across this garden.

[27:05] And the names of the seven victims would be engraved in the stone uh kind of framing the end of the space there.

[27:15] Here's that same uh experience with the water feature. So with the water feature, we imagine that it kind of would be running along the

[27:24] sides of the oval, but as it reaches this conclusion, it would sort of um come to a a more still condition. So you

[27:33] get another kind of reflective moment here at the end uh just beyond where the names are engraved.

[27:43] So materials just just kind of taking some of the materials we spoke about last time um and showing where those

[27:51] exist on the plan. Uh the primary circulation into the site and around the council ring would be um a sort of top

[28:00] cast concrete. So that's concrete with uh kind of exposed to aggregates. So you see the the natural material within the concrete.

[28:08] The primary loop around the garden uh and within the niches would be calccarious brick. So brick with uh lime

[28:16] lime based clay. Um and then seating elements using thermally modified wood throughout. And then we are considering

[28:25] uh we know that gravel is is kind of a concern, but we're considering a stabilized gravel. So, that's gravel with a stabilizing grid. It's an ADA

[28:34] um walkable gravel. I've I've seen this in heavily traffked urban areas where you've got food trucks driving onto it

[28:42] and you can't even see tire prints after they're gone. Um they're heelproof. Um but the idea is that those paths in the

[28:49] garden might have this sort of more informal material and they wouldn't need to be shoveled in the winter necessarily or uh snowb blown.

[28:59] Um, limestone would also show up as kind of an accent element on specific memorial features if there is a water

[29:06] feature, coping elements. Um, so you'd have sort of special moments with stone throughout the space as well.

[29:17] And then an initial look at at lighting.

[29:20] Um, we'll get a a more this is just sort of an an AI prompt to kind of show how the the plan would be lit up, but we'll

[29:28] get a more detailed look at lighting in design development phase. Um, but again, the idea is to have accessible ambient

[29:37] lighting throughout the space. Um, particularly in uh key moments like the niches, we would have maybe some special

[29:46] lighting moments for instance within those tables.

[29:50] um or bench underlighting in those moments as well.

[29:57] Uh looking into the planting in a little bit more depth than we did last time. Um so we have a much more extensive list of

[30:05] of plant material that we can provide if anyone's curious. Um but for now I'm just going to go through kind of how how

[30:12] the plant material sort of impacts the mood in each season. So in spring it should really feel fresh. We're um using

[30:21] a lot of different shades of green, blues, pinks, and violets. Um so that kind of after the long kind of stark uh

[30:30] visual uh period of winter, you have this kind of um very lush sense to the landscape.

[30:40] In summer um we are really trying to create a tranquil mood. So, um, you know, it can get very hot and humid here

[30:48] in the summer. So, we want to introduce things like sort of silvery gray foliage that kind of creates visual coolness to

[30:56] the space, but also some of the colored elements become a little bit more intense as well. Um, you get deeper

[31:04] violets, um, accents of orange like Mexican sunflower, butterfly weed, um,

[31:12] and and little pops of color throughout that sort of remind us that it's the sort of celebratory time of year.

[31:21] Fall should feel abundant. You know, it's sort of at the end of the season.

[31:27] It's kind of all the culmination of all the growing that's been done through summer. Um, you have all that on display. You have plants going to seed

[31:35] and we've selected plants that have specifically they're very sculptural and uh beautiful seed heads that can remain.

[31:43] Grasses are sort of at their fullest.

[31:45] And then we've also incorporated plants that do flower well into fall like aers um and anemmones. And then of course you get the color and the canopy as well.

[31:57] [snorts]

[31:59] In winter, what we're looking for is a feeling of luminosity. Um, you are of course going to have less color in

[32:08] winter. It's just it's if anybody else has a solution for making it feel like summer and winter, I would I would love to hear that. Uh, that's that doesn't

[32:16] involve climate change. Um, but we do want to bring some color into the space and we looked specifically at sort of

[32:23] gold and orange tones. um gold, winter berry, uh arctic fire, dogwood, and then

[32:31] using perennials that in their dormant state have uh seed heads and remnants of

[32:39] their flowers that will catch the the low winter light. Um the alders that we spoke about last time also become really

[32:46] beautiful architectural features in in winter. Uh and then keeping some of the U that exists on the site today for sort

[32:54] of an evergreen framing of the space um that will really kind of elevate the the um starkness of snow in the winter.

[33:05] Um and a couple more just views of of winter. Um, you know, one thing that we talk about with more naturalistic

[33:12] planting is leaving the uh especially native perennials kind of in their state

[33:20] till early spring. Um, that does a couple things. It creates texture and form in the winter rather than just sort of a blank slate. Um, but it also

[33:29] creates habitat. Uh a lot of overwintering invertebrates uh like to use those um that those

[33:37] leftover seed heads as shelter essentially. So it creates structure for the garden in the winter, but it also is preser um providing a a uh ecosystem service.

[33:49] Another winter view here.

[33:56] So with that um we can we could pause there before we jump into the numbers but if there's questions about the actual design but uh

[34:05] we do have sort of a rough opinion of cost here. This is going to get vetted by construction manager once

[34:11] construction manager is hired. Um we sort of

[34:19] we're took a pretty conservative approach. We have a line item breakdown of of kind of everything that goes into the design. This is just sort of a

[34:25] summary. We threw a 25% contingency on all of those numbers as well. Um,

[34:33] so without the water feature, we believe that this space will end up somewhere in

[34:39] the 1.3 to 1.7 million cost range. And based on recent discussions with some

[34:46] water feature engineers, um, we were we were honestly pretty surprised at the cost of water features, sort of the inflation of that type of feature since

[34:55] the pandemic has just not gone down at all. Um, and so they were where we were

[35:02] thinking sort of 4 to $600,000, they were thinking 800 to a million. So we adjusted our numbers accordingly. And so

[35:10] you could see we've added an add alternate for the water feature at the bottom that puts the total for this

[35:16] design at 2.25 to $2.8 million. So we are we understand that there's a $2

[35:24] million budget. We wanted to sort of bring that issue to the to the table now for your for your discussion and

[35:31] consideration. Um, we do think obviously there's a lot of value that comes from a water feature, but we also are pleased

[35:39] that the space works in a lot functionally very much the same without it. I think that this this design could stand with with or without it.

[35:49] Certainly, um, it's kind of an additional level of poetry and atmosphere that that could be considered. However,

[35:57] so just in terms of immediate next steps, um so we did receive a couple of proposals for construction management

[36:04] services. Um we're going to conduct interviews next week and then we'll be bringing forward a recommendation to hire uh construction manager for that

[36:13] next phase of um of the project. And then um we're looking for council's

[36:19] feedback in terms of when we prepare construction documents. So, do you want to prepare it as is or the water

[36:27] feature? We could have that water feature as an add-on and then actually see what the bid proposals come [clears throat] back with with that water feature. So, that's just an option

[36:35] that we could do as we move forward. So, just looking for your feedback in that regard. Thank you.

[36:41] Oh, is that it then? Are you still That's a I I think it might be good.

[36:45] Portland will be next, but maybe we can discuss the rose garden first since they're sort of in different different spots right now. Um I just want to share

[36:53] some thoughts and then we'll go around the table. Um to me a water feature is absolutely critical and I understand and

[37:00] obviously we are prioritizing fiscal responsibility always. Um but I think it's an element that just brings so much to what we're

[37:09] trying to achieve in this place and and I recognize it's costly. Um but this is something that will be here

[37:17] for decades to come and I just think we need to do it right. Um, I appreciated you showing the different

[37:25] seasons. It's important to show uh particularly in the middle of the summer what this is because I think that's

[37:33] where a significant amount of use will come. One question I had which is just out of the clear blue sky is would it be at all if we have the water feature

[37:42] would it be possible to float candles like on July 4th around the perimeter with plant material? Let's just sort of

[37:49] put that on your radar. Um, and if the water feature is too costly,

[37:57] can we at least have the reflecting ponds cost out? Like there's obviously pumps involved with if you water moving versus water sitting and so is that

[38:06] another option that we might be able to consider if people aren't comfortable spending the full amount. Um, I like what you've done with the seven niches,

[38:15] um, and not having them specific to any one person. I think that's important.

[38:21] Um, are the tables able to be sat upon?

[38:25] Like, could that be additional seating if a large group is in there? U, would that be part of the construction?

[38:32] And I like the light elements coming out of the tables. I think in the winter time in particular, that'll be a really unique, uh, visual.

[38:41] Um, I also appreciate what you've done to try to reflect the past, well, current rose garden in terms of

[38:48] including the council ring and that nod to Jens Johnson, the prolific use of wild flowers and the reflection back to

[38:56] Jesse Lo Smith and I think you had mentioned that roses that are not the Egan roses but are more deer resistant roses would be included. Is that okay?

[39:07] Um, and I appreciate the use of limestone again with the historic reflection. Um, one question that I had and I know we're getting to Port Clinton

[39:15] next. Um, but to me in my mind, I see a fountain in Port Clinton that is complimentary to the water feature here.

[39:23] So, I feel like if you get rid of the water feature now, I really don't know where I'm headed in Port Clinton. And that's again just one person's opinion.

[39:31] Um, but I appreciate the thought and I appreciate the ability to see the four seasons. Um, and thanks for thanks for

[39:40] all of this. Um, Tony, um, as I was coming into it, I

[39:48] my experience with memorials and places of remembrance include both those with and without water features.

[39:57] And frankly, I would be comfortable going in either direction. My personal preferences for water. Um,

[40:05] one of the things about water is that it represents life. Um, I find the sound

[40:12] and the movement of water comforting and a little hypnotic. U, but that can also be there are substitutes for that. There

[40:21] are um windchime type elements. Um there are other things that can substitute for

[40:29] the the subtle noise and and the movement that we get with water, but my preference is for water. Um you know, we

[40:37] live on a lake. Um it's a feature of our daily lives. Um I'm not uncomfortable if we want to go in that direction. I'm not

[40:46] uncomfortable with the monetary demands that that is going to make. Um, I often speak about the financial issues that we

[40:54] have to decide on and go ahead.

[41:00] And I'm often um sort of driven by that in this circumstance. I I feel I'm more driven by the end result. So I'm I'm

[41:09] comfortable financially if we have to make that decision. Thanks.

[41:13] Um, so I was, first of all, I I love what you did and I love definitely looking at the different flowers and the arrangements for all the different

[41:21] seasons. That definitely paints a different picture for what we're looking at each season. Um, I also am in favor

[41:28] of the water feature. Um, I you said um I said I'm thinking calmness um with the water sounds. Um, that's kind of where

[41:36] I'm at. And I think to add it as an add-on just to see where we're at when we get the proposals back makes sense.

[41:44] Also, um, in terms of lighting, could you go back to that picture of the lighting just like for so for if

[41:52] someone's out there? Let's just say after dinner they walk over and want to reflect. Um, is that so there's lighting

[41:59] all throughout the whole path the whole Okay.

[42:02] Yeah. So, we have still the um recommended ADA connection to the city hall front sidewalk. Okay.

[42:11] And the path out to St. John's. Both of those would have I would think probably

[42:17] 1 to 1.5 ft candle. Um, and then within the site probably throughout you're looking at like half to one foot candle

[42:27] I would think and then maybe a little bit more in each niche so that you can so that both those feel illuminated in like a poetic way but also that you can

[42:35] see clearly that somebody's in there in the evening.

[42:38] Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. And overall I think you did a beautiful job.

[42:43] Thank you. Um, and I can't wait to see this finished product and thank you. Thank you. Okay. Well, um, a couple of things.

[42:52] First of all, I love the 48 trees for the survivors because one of the things that was really bothering me was I didn't know how to incorporate it. Um,

[43:00] and that kind of goes hand inhand with the fact that as much as I love the Seven Gardens, I've heard from several people in the community that two of the

[43:10] victims were a couple and how would their family feel having to go to two different gardens,

[43:17] but by not having the names on the garden, it it really works beautifully.

[43:22] [clears throat] And then I also think that, you know, if someone were coming for their loved one and they're sitting in the garden with that person's name,

[43:31] but then others come who they don't know and it kind of intrudes on them if they're going to a different garden. It I I just love what you did with this cuz

[43:39] I was very troubled by the six versus seven and I almost said, could we use the seventh niche for the survivors, but I like this much better.

[43:48] So you really resolved a lot of the questions that I have as of Sunday by doing it this way. So that's that's

[43:57] really the good news. Um I think the lighting is lovely and that's something that I'm hoping whether it's in Fort Clinton or here. That's really crucial.

[44:06] Could I ask for a clarification? You said the candle is that what's in the center of the table or the candles?

[44:12] No, no. I just was like committed candles if we had floating candles on July 4th or something like that. Is that Yeah, I I was just convinced that was just out of the clear sky.

[44:22] So, I love the lighting along the edges of um the table that it somehow reminds me and I I I can only speak from my

[44:30] faith, but in many synagogues we have lighting like that inside walls that are stone.

[44:36] So, it just kind of made me feel like um that's good. But I also like the crevices because when you go to a

[44:44] cemetery, it's in the Jewish culture, you leave a stone. And whereas we don't want people putting stones all over. On

[44:51] the one hand, you know, um if people wanted to leave a stone in a niche or if some of the niches didn't have light,

[44:58] let's say eight lights around the table, but 12 niches, people could leave a stone inside too the way one does. and

[45:06] and and again that's just one group and the way in which sometimes they practice and remember and I'm not saying people

[45:13] would do it but I do like the ability to bring in that cultural piece of it.

[45:19] Do you think people would put a stone on a name? I think they'd be more inclined to leave a stone on a name.

[45:24] They might. And that's why I like that all the names are at the end.

[45:28] Um because it gives them the option to to remember in their own way. Maybe they put flowers, maybe they put a candle, whatever it is.

[45:36] Um, I did I love the idea of water. I mean, if there's one thing I read in this, and I don't know if it's really only the 113 responses,

[45:45] but I don't Everything seemed to say that everybody wanted water. Yeah.

[45:49] Now, we just walked there a little bit before and I love the idea that the ravine is there. So, there is water, right?

[45:55] And and I'm not saying it that we shouldn't do the water, but there is water. And so two of the suggestions I

[46:02] had, I mean, because I always wanted to be on the garden walk in Highland Park, I put a fountain in my backyard because you have to have a watermelon element or you don't qualify.

[46:12] And it's a lovely fountain, you know, and I hate to say it, but I plug it in.

[46:16] And I was sort of thinking that in the center of each table if you had a fountain Mhm.

[46:22] in each table rather than around the perimeter. And I'm sorry to sound fiscally.

[46:28] We talked about that exact thing earlier today, but I I just think it would give whomever is visiting in the niche the

[46:36] respect and and the the sound of the water, Tony, which I completely agree with you. And maybe in some way that

[46:43] could at some point in the future have something to do with the ravine, but the circle of water doesn't mean that much

[46:50] to me. And I I'm frankly just astounded and appalled at the cost. You guys and and I look, I know you did this quickly.

[46:59] The water feature designers we spoke to were also, you know, we have poor Clinton. This this is hardcape cost. This is not

[47:06] taking into account, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but all the costs of the professionals that we have to hire.

[47:12] So, you know, and by the way, that 2 million, we had as a council stated we were going to come down from that.

[47:19] Oh, I always thought we were heading towards three myself. So, well, no, we had said our budget was going to be two and then we kind of were thinking there might be ways to pull it

[47:27] back. I I don't mean to be the one who's like drilling back on money, but I I I just would like to have water. And if

[47:34] there are other ways to think of doing it where we're not spending a million dollars on water, um when we want to

[47:42] have that feeling, whether it's through art or flowers or whatever, I just don't know that I can do that. Um sorry to go on water at the ravine.

[47:52] Light is beautiful. Rock placement is great. Um the seven and the six is I think I'm done. [laughter] Sorry. Thank you. Water.

[48:03] Um [clears throat] thanks. Uh I've been so incredibly thoughtful. I'll

[48:11] really want to look it up. Um, few questions, comments as I digest

[48:19] everything that people are saying and sort of as I was thinking through as you were speaking. Um, [snorts]

[48:27] I think the 48 trees is a phenomenal addition. I think it's fantastic.

[48:32] Is there something we could also do for everyone else who weren't physically injured but who were there present and have the mental trauma and the ongoing

[48:42] pain of that and I don't know what that is. So if sorry to interrupt you um the the the

[48:50] thinking there is that this initial space the council ring is really all about that the you would have these sort of more kind of shoulder height walls

[48:59] with narrative that sort of honors the broader community honors first responders.

[49:06] Um but part of the symbolism of the council rings beyond the historic connection to Jensen Jensen is you know

[49:13] the reason that he would put these elements into parks was to build community resiliency and community

[49:21] togetherness. So there's kind of a symbolism with that sort of initial space. This is all about Highland Park more broadly essentially.

[49:30] Yeah. Sorry to interrupt.

[49:31] No, no, that's great. Um, I'm glad customer litter spoke of some

[49:38] of the cultural influences from a Judaism perspective. I think that was really true to point out that there's

[49:46] optionality there. We've also talked about the importance of the Spanish speaking community and curious kind of how that has worked as well work its way

[49:54] into into your thought into the design here. Um, I think that, you know, the the idea of the table was sort of a it it was kind of a dual purpose, right?

[50:05] There's there's the table as a gathering element. Um, but there's also the idea that this could almost act like an altar

[50:12] or a place to create sort of a temporary shrine in a way. Um the other thing that we've done specifically with planting is

[50:21] to bring in um the color orange um to uh specifically choose plants that are

[50:28] really attracted to butterflies. So there's some sort of nature-based symbolism um that kind of links back to

[50:35] the the Hispanic culture. Um so you know it's we we wanted

[50:42] particularly with the niches becoming uh non-individualized

[50:49] we wanted the elements in the center to be have multiple interpretations essentially the narrative is also going to be in

[50:58] English and Spanish correct yes yep yeah in this council ring space it'll be English and finish.

[51:05] Great. [clears throat] With respect to paying homage to JSON

[51:12] and the others who were trying to um pay homage to with given the

[51:20] designated site. Uh are we you clearly did a great job doing that? Um

[51:29] is there going to be a plaque or something? Right. Is is there is there thoughts around how to explain that to the the people who are visiting who

[51:37] might not pick up on the the more subtle things that have been thought through but that are clearly done on purpose.

[51:44] I would personally suggest that there might be a plaque sort of if we kind of

[51:51] back up um in the wild like maybe beyond this threshold. Um, so that there's something that you read before you enter

[51:59] the space that notes that this site was the historic rose garden. It was dedicated to these three individuals.

[52:06] Here is why. Here are things that you could look for within the space if you're interested in that. But that once you're in the space,

[52:14] it might be uh confusing to people who aren't intimately familiar with what happened here on July 4th. If there's

[52:23] names of these three individuals, they'll think, you know, Jen Jensen was there.

[52:28] I agree completely. I mean, that was one of my original feedbacks around my my concern around doing

[52:36] that those two forces working against each other. I think what he just described like is a very delicate discreet way of identifying it,

[52:44] paying homage and moving but also having it stand having this which is critically important to stand by itself. Right.

[52:50] Yeah. Um, tactical question, right? 48 trees and just the maturity of the foliage, like

[52:58] how how old are the trees? How how how do they look when they get planted versus how big do they grow? How long does that take?

[53:05] Yeah, great question. So, the specific species that we're looking at is an Armstrong gold maple, which is a a

[53:13] upright cultivar. Um, so they only get about 15 to 18 feet wide, but they get

[53:20] much taller than that. Um, and so they're planted relatively densely, um, which is intentional to create that

[53:26] screening, but they will sort of all grow up together. Um, I think that if

[53:33] you get we we priced them as 4in caliber trees, so fairly mature. Um, so they would probably be,

[53:41] you know, 15 to 20 feet high day one. Um, and then they would get uh maybe twice that. Um,

[53:51] so but they they're not going to get much wider.

[53:54] Yeah, they really they they grow up like that.

[53:57] Um, the the alternate that we could look at is an upright oak tree.

[54:01] [clears throat]

[54:01] um which doesn't have the same kind of brilliance of fall color, but the nice thing about oaks is that they actually

[54:08] keep their leaves in the winter. Um so it doesn't the the kind of screening element doesn't go away, you know, from

[54:16] the library or from city hall. Um and then they sort of lose them in in late winter, early spring and start putting out new leaves.

[54:23] Okay, great. And then I guess last comment or last thoughts around the water

[54:31] debate. Um, you know, I'm I'm also torn on it. I my gut is that the mayor's comments are

[54:40] correct with respect to like this is a forever site, right? And doing this

[54:46] right and catering to those who uh have expressed how important water is

[54:55] to that uh is worth that investment. I would suggest we maintain flex

[55:02] open-mindedness and flexibility as we continue throughout this process to know that the design does work without it, with or without it. Or maybe there's

[55:11] maybe it's not everything that was here in terms of the full outline plus the pond. Maybe maybe it's one or one of those or something slightly different.

[55:19] But I as you laid it out, I think it's beautiful. Um so my gut would be like let's let's try to make that work. But I

[55:27] would suggest to the council that we do maintain an open mind there. Great.

[55:34] Oh, thank you. Um and thank you to S Swa for developing this further and for the

[55:43] lovely um renderings. Um and to uh my colleagues question about the

[55:51] height of the trees. I I I'm suddenly reminded of uh uh my friend who uh was a

[55:58] lead designer for Maggie Dailyaly Park in the 606 um trail in and how when that it was first installed, he was worried

[56:06] because it takes time for the landscape to mature. So, it's going to look kind of [cough] a little even meager at

[56:14] first. It's going to take years for it to develop and mature. So, I was reminded of that comment. Um, and I I

[56:23] also think it's a lovely idea, the 48 trees. Um, and I I guess can you I'm

[56:30] kind of curious about how that's going how how we're actually going to read that as as um, you know, 48 separate

[56:40] trees. I mean, as as as as how will that actually be expressed? How is how are visitors going to understand that it's

[56:49] not just a public forest of trees that it's that they they each mean something?

[56:54] Yeah, I think I think that's a great question. I I would say, you know, each tree is not going to there's there's a a

[57:02] strategic decision in not sort of assigning individuals to trees. Um. Uhhuh.

[57:08] And we've heard that maybe the the individuals who are injured have sort of whole spectrum of views on whether or

[57:15] not they'd like to be named. Um so um so we would would simply we just have the 48 and and probably in

[57:23] that council ring there would be kind of a narrative cue like as you're walking through the space the 48 trees that are sort of sheltering this space.

[57:33] um know that those represent the individuals who are wounded.

[57:38] Uh I'm I'm still worried about how this is going to look in the winter time. You you showed it with snow and snow has a

[57:46] tendency to make landscape and just about everything look magical. Um and and uh you know, but we more often than not there won't be snow.

[57:56] It'll just be bare.

[57:58] Um and I'm just really curious about what that's going to look like. not the snow is the pretty version of it and uh

[58:06] and just worried about barness. Um so that that's that's a concern. Um but

[58:15] you did talk about the maples keeping their oaks keep their leaves. The maples do not.

[58:22] Yeah. So if if if that were a preference, we could look at the upright oaks instead. Oh, okay. But take so long to grow.

[58:30] Yeah. They're slower. I just worry about the barness of it. Um, and I did wonder

[58:36] I do I do love the water feature too and uh a question is can we get more quotes

[58:43] on the water? I mean is it it is it have you looked at Those weren't actual quotes I should say. Those were sort of talking to two

[58:53] different experienced water feature designer and engineers. Um, and they both kind of gave us, you know, independently very similar range.

[59:03] Yeah.

[59:03] Uh, it was off the cuff. They're they may be airing on the side of more expensive

[59:11] because they don't want to underell what the cost of it is going to be, but I, you know, I would rather be

[59:18] conservative in our number. Um um I do I do really love the idea of water and and and I'm concerned about the cost is really high.

[59:28] Everybody is Yeah. Um and I I don't know if there could be a like a strategic use of like polished granite or something polished

[59:37] stone that sort of mimics you know with the reflective nature of it um water.

[59:44] Um, so that is just a suggestion and yeah, that's that's all I've got for right now.

[59:52] Great. Thank you, Andre.

[59:54] Yeah. Um, can you go back to the overall map? I mean, yeah, that one. So, you know, right now,

[1:00:03] I mean, obviously when it's going to be re completely rellandscaped, you know, a lot of things are going to come down. So right now there is a uh a lot of bushes

[1:00:12] that divide the the yard. So where are those bushes right now? Like I imagine those are going to be removed.

[1:00:20] See if [clears throat] I can um

[1:00:29] don't want to scratch your screen. Uh yeah, thank you.

[1:00:36] So, um, yeah. So, there's really like kind of three portions of the site now, as you're I'm sure well aware. There's the four foreground with the the big

[1:00:44] mature oaks, which is largely the same in this path. There's the rose garden, which is sort of in this space here. Um,

[1:00:54] and then there are hedges uh kind of separating the rose garden from St.

[1:01:00] John's. And then there's more hedges, of course, screening um the rose garden from the the space

[1:01:07] beyond. Um and there's kind of like almost like a thicket here and a thicket here that kind of wrap into this space a

[1:01:16] little bit. Um so that's where a lot of the the vegetative density is is kind of in this pocket here and this pocket here. And then there's some like weedier

[1:01:24] stuff that comes up out of the ravine right in here too.

[1:01:27] Yeah. So basically in order to really landscape it all pretty much you're going to Yeah. So, I don't have the diagram in

[1:01:35] this presentation, but the one that um you were here last time when we gave it um so we missed this, but the the one that we g we [clears throat] showed kind

[1:01:44] of the tree this preliminary tree disposition. And so, we're really trying to keep all the trees on this half of

[1:01:51] the site, all the great trees that are back in the ravine and kind of along the library perimeter. And then in here, it's a lot of the invasive tree, a lot

[1:01:59] of tree of heaven, which is quite invasive. So, we felt okay recommending the removal of those. And this kit is

[1:02:07] good tree species, but they're all maybe under 5 years old, under 10 years old.

[1:02:11] So, there's not any like big mature trees in that area that are valuable or healthy. Um, so we're we were

[1:02:20] we felt okay removing those pockets and then adding, you know, quite a few new trees, right?

[1:02:26] And then just because this is a one-time deal here, I just to ask a question.

[1:02:32] Is the footprint too large? Uh, I mean, I know you're using the whole space because it's there,

[1:02:39] but from a design perspective and even cost perspective and intimacy perspective,

[1:02:46] you know, my worry, you I mean, you look at this beautiful layout, uh, my worry is that, you know, this is

[1:02:54] there's going to be people coming and obviously there's going to be times there's going to be more people than other times, but I'm guessing right now

[1:03:02] there's a chance that it might be kind of sparse.

[1:03:05] in terms of people, you know, long periods of time.

[1:03:09] And I think about the phenomenon of visual space and when it's full of people, it looks full and and special

[1:03:17] and like it's right. But if you have a space that's too large and it's often too sparsely filled, it actually feels desolate or

[1:03:25] sad or and obviously this is a place of remembrance, so it's going to be sad and stuff, but I wouldn't want it to feel sad because there's empty. Empty. Yeah.

[1:03:33] So I worry about emptiness because we made it too large and we know that the same number of people in a large space versus same people in a

[1:03:42] small space can create a very different emotional field. Absolutely. So my worry here is as we've [clears throat] done have we done estimates and I know it's

[1:03:51] kind of hard to do but how many what the foot traffic might be different times of the year and different seasons and and

[1:03:57] what does that do to this issue of um you know too much space to too few people right and and the unintended

[1:04:06] consequences of that for a layout that looks beautiful but maybe it's too large for how it's going to be used. It's a

[1:04:14] great question and actually Christian and I were literally just talking about this uh as we were waiting for things to get started that the the views actually make the space feel bigger than it is.

[1:04:26] Like I was just out there earlier today and I had to pace it out to like double check. I was like, you know, the survey says it's X feet from the center of the

[1:04:35] rose garden to the, you know, the tree at the top of the ravine. And just standing back there, it felt smaller

[1:04:44] than that. And I was like, I really hope we didn't get a survey that was inaccurate. And [laughter] I paced it out and I was like, no, that's that's that's right. It just feels a lot smaller.

[1:04:53] I think I think the um the digital views have a way of making it feel more expansive. It's partly a wide wide angle camera thing.

[1:05:01] Yeah. Um, I do also think that the the plant, like if the planting in the center were a lawn,

[1:05:08] we would start to run into the issue you're describing a lot more, but that's going to fill in. It's going to have rich texture. It's going to have birds

[1:05:17] and butterflies in movement. It's not going to be a desolate plaza, right?

[1:05:22] It's going to be filled with life, even if that life isn't always other people. Got it.

[1:05:27] Um, and I think that that will uh that will fill the space up. I also, you know, to to the point that some of you

[1:05:34] have brought up about the water feature, the sound of that will also make the space feel occupied. Um, well, I just wanted to stress that.

[1:05:43] Yeah. No, that's a that's a great question. That's a great question. Go ahead. A few more things here. Okay.

[1:05:48] Um, [clears throat] the um I'll come back to the water I'm coming back to the water issue. Obviously, I support it. I believe in it. I have a water fountain

[1:05:56] that is really important to my experience in my backyard. Um, And uh so there's the objective that we

[1:06:05] all agreed to that the water the calm you know all those good things can we create that same outcome with something

[1:06:13] less big you know and so some ideas were suggested over here you know smaller even I don't know one fountain could be

[1:06:21] enough to create that auditory space but maybe you know there is water on the the council ring and is that enough and

[1:06:29] I would be interested in the acoustic um projection of a water feature if it's only in one place or the idea of

[1:06:39] smaller ones. How much of an acoustic experience would it create without having to be as large [clears throat and cough] and in theory

[1:06:45] bring down the cost and still create the I don't know offhand but I would think

[1:06:54] without getting to like Disney World levels of water the more the water moves the louder it gets right you have jets and things which we don't want in a

[1:07:03] space like this that's not the right feeling but if you have a a a burbling water feature that doesn't feel overwhelming when

[1:07:11] you're right next to it. I would think that 15 ft away from it, you would hear it. Beyond that, it would become quiet.

[1:07:17] You would, you know, the vegetation around the movement of leaves and things like that would probably start to overtake the sound of the water.

[1:07:23] So therefore, you you would argue, is this is this the case you were making from as a designer that in order to have the water effect throughout the

[1:07:32] experience, you need a water feature of that size or not necessarily? Uh I I think that what Annette suggested could

[1:07:40] work as well that there's moment or episodes almost of of water. There's different moments of hearing water and and with something like that you could

[1:07:48] work with like almost a a pre-fabricated system, right? That's a lot less expensive. Um but the the nice thing

[1:07:57] about it sort of following the space, it kind of moves. It's like a companion that's walking alongside you, right? Um as you move throughout the space. Um, so

[1:08:05] there's it's sort of different feelings uh of of water, but I think there are different approaches to it.

[1:08:11] What we could do um and then we'll just be in a better informed position eventually when this does go to bid um

[1:08:18] is we could take the bid documents and ask for cross proposals when we get to that time as draft as designed and then

[1:08:28] also but it itemized. Right? So as designed but itemized and then also this alternative option that we talked about

[1:08:36] before and that was suggested here. So that way in essence um we're seeing a couple of different options with costs.

[1:08:43] Okay. So and then just to state that as much as we love the water the water is going to be off you know whatever half

[1:08:51] the year and so here we're looking at cost and impact and you know so half the year we won't have the outcome.

[1:08:57] Okay. So, so I think we need to factor that in. And I And is there such a thing as water features that are doable in the

[1:09:06] winter like because of you could rec It's expensive. It is expensive.

[1:09:13] Or or and this might be too fake. So it just I'm just trying to be creative here. If in the winter we could create an auditory

[1:09:21] have a speaker, right? So, and and I think people might be okay with that in theory because they go, "Oh, yeah. It was understandable. We

[1:09:30] love the water. We can't have it half the year. And can we get something that is doesn't sound synthetic, but sounds

[1:09:37] like, you know, I mean, right now, you can do pretty good stuff with the audio." Now, it might at a cost that may push us over the edge. But

[1:09:45] I just want to throw that out there that I don't want to just accept without exploring that we won't have the the the thing that we really want a lot

[1:09:54] not have any of it for half a year. So, and I like Yumi's suggestion of the highly polished granite because it gives that reflectivity of the sky into the space.

[1:10:03] It's sometimes used that way too. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then just one final thing.

[1:10:10] Sure. Um, I I don't think you address the Latino cultural issue. I really, you have recommendations.

[1:10:17] Well, I'm not the designer, but I'm just reacting culturally unlike, you know, butterflies. I mean, the

[1:10:25] butterflies are very ethereal and they may or may not appear. That that's putting a lot of weight on the butterflies to show up and the flowers

[1:10:33] attract them to give the Latino experience. I think that's very weak.

[1:10:36] Are you thinking more of color? Are you thinking?

[1:10:39] Well, yeah, the color, the textures. Um, I think, you know, there's u, you know, Latin culture and several Latin cultures

[1:10:47] have a lot with textiles and multi- you know, multi-exture patterns. Um, this is

[1:10:55] very it's beautiful and I love it, but you know, Latin aesthetic is a lot more

[1:11:02] complex and a lot more um what's the word? um baroque if you will in in Atlanta style right it's you know it's

[1:11:10] the the if you look at a Catholic cathedral it's you know has all this encrusted with stuff you look at a synagogue or even Protestant

[1:11:18] architecture it's much smoother and cleaner lines and it's minimalist often but Catholic is not minimalist it's the

[1:11:26] opposite with the lighting coming out of the tables that we could work with in terms of like possible symbols and using the

[1:11:34] lighting is wonderful And at night, you start to create more, you know, again, I'll use the the cathedral,

[1:11:42] the Latin cathedral aesthetic is a good proxy because you get the the Baroque part, you get the the gold part, uh you

[1:11:51] get the lighting, you get the candle part, right? But a lot of that in your current design is contingent on nighttime for some of that to come

[1:11:58] alive. During the daytime, you know, I've just not seen it.

[1:12:04] Yeah. Um I I think that's something that as we kind of get into the you're talking a lot about sort of like

[1:12:11] intricacy and detail, right? And I think that as we move into design development, we can really explore some of that. Um,

[1:12:18] I I one thing that we had talked about is with the um the tables and the niches

[1:12:26] is that, you know, if somebody did place something inside of one of those

[1:12:32] uh you could have patterns that get cast out from the light, right?

[1:12:37] If they put a flower inside that or something. And but but we could we could even pre-esign that to have, you know, little metal screens within that that cast out those patterns.

[1:12:46] Yeah. And and I think this is a really good example. see that the the the uniform color at least

[1:12:53] of the stone in the top that's very minimalist and you know clean like the more Jewish synagogue and absolutely right

[1:13:01] and the Protestant one but you know if you look at the Latin thing you you look at tile where the tile yeah I was going to say right was a tala tile

[1:13:10] I mean tala tile concept would be something you can encrust in different parts and give it an action the tiles in the same way as you have places that are, you know, the lights.

[1:13:20] Maybe some of the outside tile could be like a red brick with an orange, you know, like a couple of colorful ones.

[1:13:26] Yeah, I mean talle which is a beautiful accent and very Latin and it will work really well in unison.

[1:13:33] Does it work in this climate or will it explode? Well, you can treat it. Yeah, I mean it can be delicate.

[1:13:40] And by the way, and I have telev as accents on a red brick. Now Yeah. Now some of it gets damaged.

[1:13:48] Okay.

[1:13:48] So, and we, you know, we've learned to put some more protective stuff that's working better. They would be the experts on how to protect it. But I

[1:13:55] think Tala Vera could be one of the easiest ways to sort of give it just the right accent without undoing what you come up with.

[1:14:05] You could also imagine that in the basin of the water feature, too, so that you see it through the water, but also when the water is not there, you'd have

[1:14:14] color in the place of it if there's a lot. Yeah, if there's a water that's or even the inside of a fountain inside each table at each niche.

[1:14:23] Yep. Absolutely.

[1:14:24] Okay. So, so I'm gonna urge us to let the designers design message.

[1:14:28] Definitely. I see you and I will call on you in a moment. Um and I know Annette you had something else you wanted to add. I just wanted to make sure that

[1:14:35] we're not turning into tokenism. I want us to make sure that [clears throat] we are turning into what we are, which is a place of respect for everybody because there were so many who were affected.

[1:14:44] And I definitely appreciate you raising that point and and and asking for increased significance. Um but back to the designer, I think you've heard sort

[1:14:54] of several sort of suggestions and ideas and now we are going to go back to the drawing table in some way, shapes and forms. Um Yumi, you had something and

[1:15:03] Annette, you had something. No, we do want to make sure to take it to Portlanders.

[1:15:09] Uh it um the two different ones. One is um I'm in favor of uh I the same thought

[1:15:19] had occurred to me like right away in my mind's side like like just the sound of water, you know, recording or whatever, but I really think that we should rely

[1:15:27] on more natural and not have a recorded natural um sources of of sound. And at

[1:15:34] one point I suggested you know tall grasses somewhere the the sound of which in the wind is is really beautiful. Um

[1:15:41] the the other thing I want to just quickly say is I I don't know I mean I saw a timeline at the very beginning but

[1:15:49] um given that this had historic meaning before the site was landmarked and how quickly does this go to HPC?

[1:15:58] Okay. So we we don't get too far along without getting some feedback. Okay. Yeah. two weeks. Okay. And a Tuesday.

[1:16:05] I just wanted to say color and that was about the flowers and and I I love what you've done, but I would love you to go

[1:16:12] back and look for more orange flowers and I think that addresses some of the other stuff.

[1:16:17] Are we doing Yeah. Is it is the intention to be all perennials or will there be annuals included in some of

[1:16:24] this? Um well so like the the Mexican sunflower which we included uh which is top right of this image um it's called

[1:16:31] the Mexican sunflower but it's native from you know Minnesota all the way down to northern Mexico. Um that is an annual

[1:16:39] but it receds itself freely and so you know an initial crop of those will keep popping up uh year year in and year out.

[1:16:47] I mean, not to increase cost and maintenance, but we could certainly have pockets for annuals to have. Yeah. That added color.

[1:16:55] We don't always suggest them without the request [clears throat] because it requires a gardener to go in and plant them and remove them.

[1:17:03] We are familiar with that. So, I think I wouldn't be shy in including that because we already have a significant contract. We're trying to get to more

[1:17:11] native plantings, but we continue to use animals. So, thank you, Tony. Um I I just wanted to identify a couple of

[1:17:19] issues. Um as a practical matter, as I said at the beginning, I I'm delighted that we're heading in the direction of a

[1:17:27] water future. I'm comfortable spending uh what may be a significantly greater amount of money to get there. I want to

[1:17:35] be conscious that not only is there going to be a significant downstroke at the beginning but the maintenance of the

[1:17:42] water feature is going to be an ongoing burden. I feel a central water feature

[1:17:50] with a single central pumping system is going to be easier to maintain and also

[1:17:56] provide a more unifying event when you're in this place of remembrance to hear the water everywhere

[1:18:05] is an enveloping experience. And while I I enjoy artistically what you have

[1:18:12] suggested of individual fountains or or something of that nature, those have to be calibrated so they're all the same size so they all operate together.

[1:18:23] It's it's a beautiful thing when it works, but it's like trying to maintain a water show at a theme park that

[1:18:32] depends on a lot of different parts

[1:18:35] [clears throat]

[1:18:35] and equalized pressure and a variety of much more complicated issues. So, while I appreciate artistically what we're

[1:18:42] getting at, my preference is for something that can be maintained consistently over a very long period of

[1:18:50] time. And I would like something large that infuses the entire experience with

[1:18:58] the sound and the piece. And in the summer, the cooling element of water um would be very important and can be

[1:19:06] replaced to some extent with with polished stone in the winter. Anything else?

[1:19:12] Okay. So, definitely more to be discussed, but so appreciate where you've gone with this. We're gonna now move to the Port Clinton portion of the conversation.

[1:19:22] Sweet. Well, thank you all for your thoughtful feedback. I'm going to pass back to Christian who's going to give

[1:19:27] the engagement for phase two of so for Clinton with each concept that we

[1:19:35] have for the Rose Garden, we paired it with the concept for poor Clinton. Um so we had the moving together which brought trees in love letters which brought this

[1:19:43] interactive element of a mailbox there and we had petals which brought um a metal statue of the rose petal to

[1:19:51] Portland along with more trees. Um we found that at Portland there was no consensus. Um people

[1:19:59] kind of felt this in three camps and it came up here when it was a d was dying to look at to react to. people felt that

[1:20:06] they had something just to say and we didn't really get we didn't see it in the data. Um they came with um a fear of

[1:20:15] losing Portland as is the fear of the impact of downtown commerce distrust in the process from day one from the moment of the shooting of just I don't know

[1:20:23] what this is but I don't I [clears throat] don't want anything or I do want something I want more. It was just from the very beginning and a fear of retraumatization. This came from all aspects of the community.

[1:20:35] when we looked at okay who who is saying what um how do we see like what the conversation is there was some uh

[1:20:43] residents of more prominence this was brought up by next of kin individuals present and injured individuals present during the shooting those connected to

[1:20:50] victims and survivors they all felt like the designs were inadequate they wanted more sculpture they wanted more permanent markers they wanted explicit

[1:20:58] acknowledgement of the shooting happened there was a stop sign that said keep it subtle they want felt like Portland's

[1:21:05] too active, it's too busy. This is a place of commerce is the heart of downtown. Um they said yes, something should be there, but we don't feel like it should be anything significant.

[1:21:16] This came more so from members of broader community. And then we had excluded entirely which was entirely of

[1:21:24] community members um no relation to mass can present injured but they felt that a moral care was inappropriate. They want it to be something where Courtland can

[1:21:33] keep growing, where it can keep coming back after the shooting that happened and continue to be the heart of downtown. For all of these responses, we

[1:21:40] often saw, you know, either excluded entirely and keep it subtle if you do anything. So, people found themselves in two camps. Um but it was all along this

[1:21:50] full spectrum here where we felt like we couldn't say any one direction came out on top and we found the consensus here

[1:21:55] [clears throat]

[1:21:56] or even around thought depending on how you weigh um the viewpoint of others.

[1:22:02] So pass it over to you to have a conversation. But so uh wi with that you know we kind of wanted to take a step back. There were

[1:22:10] there was also additional discussion that came up the last time uh we were here about what is the future of Port

[1:22:16] Clinton that has implications for what the appropriate approach to the place of secondary place of remembrance at this

[1:22:24] site is. Um and so we have put together some kind of very

[1:22:31] highlevel images taken precedent images just more than anything not to say this is what we're proposing but to generate

[1:22:38] discussion among all of you. Some key considerations that um you know we we've been asking ourselves about over the

[1:22:46] last few weeks. One thing that's kind of come up for us is that you know all all the voices that we have heard that one one piece of consensus is that everybody

[1:22:55] does still want for this site to continue as a vital hub for community life. I think there's just kind of a tension between different groups about

[1:23:02] whether having a place of remembrance there uh is compatible with that or to what degree. Um but there's there's

[1:23:09] nobody who says this should no longer be a center of our community. Um uh the other big piece again I I just

[1:23:19] mentioned this but it may be redeveloped in the future. So how does that inform decisions about this? How do we create something that can not just get kind of

[1:23:27] thrown away if that happens 10 15 20 years from now whatever that may be timeline may be. Um [clears throat] and

[1:23:34] then we asked ourselves what type of design intervention can feel appropriate for the context, adaptable to the future

[1:23:41] and also meaningful. Gita, I don't know if you wanted to jump in at all or just let me keep rolling with it. Okay.

[1:23:50] Um, so one thing we've been talking about is sculpture, which I think [clears throat] there's been discussion

[1:23:58] about this, uh, and and oh, you know, maybe a big sculpture is going to feel like too much for this space, but as we've kind of taken a step back, we

[1:24:06] wanted to sort of reframe that because in our mind, sculpture can mean a lot of different things depending on the context. We think of a sculpture in a

[1:24:15] museum room, it's a very different experience, right? It's you are in a stark white room. You were meant to just see nothing but this sculpture. It's

[1:24:24] direct. You have volunteered to walk into this space and to feel an intense one-on-one experience with art. Um, so

[1:24:34] it's that's kind of one end of the spectrum. There's also sculpture that we see, you know, maybe in a sculpture garden or out in a larger field. And uh

[1:24:42] you know usually that's at a very large scale right it's framed by maybe an open lawn expansive views it could be distant

[1:24:50] um it still has somewhat of a voluntary nature because to go up to it and to feel the scale of that piece you have to

[1:24:57] make a conscious decision to walk out there to go to that then in urban plaza

[1:25:03] which is what Portland is sculpture is actually quite a bit more passive and this As we've sort of thought about

[1:25:12] this, we thought, you know, maybe sculpture is actually a really appropriate solution for this space to kind of meet the differing needs of this community.

[1:25:22] Because if you if you sort of imagine all the sculptures you've ever walked by in an urban space, how many of them just

[1:25:30] felt like it was kind of part of the fabric of that space and not sort of the singular moment? Right? An urban space

[1:25:37] is busy. It's full of life. It changes throughout the day. It's much more close uh and and varied and kind of chaotic of

[1:25:46] a context than a big expansive landscape in the center of a lawn or a stark white museum room, right? It's it is less

[1:25:55] confrontational in an urban plaza. It is a part of a larger composition rather than being the moment. Um, so we've

[1:26:04] started to think about that and say, okay, well, maybe a sculpture is a good solution that kind of balances

[1:26:11] where the community is at, but also provides this adaptability for the future. Um, if if Port Clinton is going

[1:26:19] to be redeveloped at some point, a sculpture is much easier to pick up, set aside, put back in a new context, um,

[1:26:26] than a sort of more holistic redesign of a space. That's, you know, if we're if we're designing

[1:26:34] different hardscapes, different custom furnishings, those do not translate well from today to [clears throat] tomorrow.

[1:26:43] So, you know, we looked at what is a kind of spectrum of sculptures. Again, this is really not anything in particular that we're recommending, but

[1:26:51] just uh provocation for discussion at this point. Um, you know, on on the one end

[1:26:59] you might have um sculptures that are really about sort of celebrating life, community love. On the other side it

[1:27:07] might be more um kind of weighty elements that sort of invite reflection, memory are more sort of somber in

[1:27:16] feeling. Uh, and you know we wanted to provoke the question of where on the spectrum

[1:27:23] would a sculpture want to fall. We know that the the Rose Garden site does sort of play the role of a more reflective

[1:27:32] quiet space. Could this be something more on the left end of the spectrum where it's sort of celebrating the life of the individuals

[1:27:41] and in doing so feel more contextually appropriate to what Port Clinton wants to be for everyday activity? or does it

[1:27:48] still need to be something that sort of has the sort of feeling of physical weight of what this event meant to the community?

[1:27:58] Um, considerations about sort of how to approach sculpture physically. We talked

[1:28:05] about employing material in a way that feels light, airy, or uplifting. Um, something that, you know, kind of is can can bring scale without bringing weight.

[1:28:16] Is that potentially a an approach? Um, using elements that provide options for engagement but remain optin. You don't

[1:28:26] have to kind of interact with them directly or is it something that actually wants to kind of frame the

[1:28:33] space? You know, it is an object um but it moves throughout the space. Um

[1:28:40] it felt like more kind of one and two to us was appropriate uh given the potential for future adapt adaptability,

[1:28:48] excuse me. Um if we start designing things that are supposed to kind of frame the space as it is today, how do they frame the space as it is tomorrow?

[1:28:56] We can't necessarily predict for that.

[1:28:59] Um, so we also looked at where you might engage with sculpture on the site and we

[1:29:07] kind of narrowed it to the elevated terrace portion of the site for a few reasons to maintain the flexibility of

[1:29:16] the uh larger space to the south where a lot of the event programming is set up um and where there's already the the

[1:29:23] Highland Park map engraved in the surface of the plaza. Um, also because there's sort of an honorific quality to saying, hey, if this is going to be a

[1:29:32] place of remembrance, let's put it in the elevated portion of the site. And um

[1:29:38] finally, sort of from a kind of having it feel appropriately scaled to the space standpoint, having it not feel

[1:29:46] like it's a singular focal point, you have a lot of trees that can both create a sort of more enjoyable context to sort

[1:29:55] of sit and reflect with the element, but they also provide scale around it. Um so that whatever you do doesn't feel like

[1:30:02] it's out of scale for for the space. And so we looked at a few different spots.

[1:30:07] One which is where the kind of tripod bench is at the um uh sort of west end

[1:30:14] of the site. Um and this is gives it some visibility um while also sort of

[1:30:21] keeping the backdrop of the trees. Um another sort of directly in the center of the grove. Um, so that that's sort of

[1:30:30] the least visible from the street, but the most kind of immersive ex context around you.

[1:30:37] Uh, the the number two on the map would be sort of at the top of the steps where the um water feature once existed uh in

[1:30:44] in the plaza and that's maybe the most prominent location. Um, but it still has that backdrop of the trees. And then we

[1:30:52] imagined, okay, the number four is like, do we want to do something that kind of floats through the space? Um,

[1:31:00] maybe more appropriate for today and less known, how how well that would fit into a Brooklyn of tomorrow.

[1:31:09] Um, this is of course the the space today. We we talked about how do we integrate this into the fabric of our everyday life.

[1:31:19] um how should it remain flexible for the future and most importantly kind of stand to remember and and honor uh the

[1:31:27] victims. Um and within all of that, how do we sort of continue to witness joy in this space? And so we sort of imagine

[1:31:36] this this shows a sculpture at the sort of top of the steps, but again thinking about sculpture in urban space, there's a lot of different textures. There's a

[1:31:44] lot of different forms. There's people walking throughout the space and um you know, council member Topius was asking

[1:31:53] about the Rose Garden. Is it too big? Is it going to feel empty? Port Clinton is a space that we know has a lot of people

[1:32:01] in it. So, we can we can sort of count on lots of traffic, right? Um that's something we can plan for. So, we wanted

[1:32:08] to sort of think about, okay, how do we how do we imagine sculpture coexisting with daily life and and does

[1:32:17] it feel like it's too prominent or does it feel like it's just kind of one piece

[1:32:25] of many within this this sort of vibrant hub? So, that that is, as I said, we kind of took a step back with this. We didn't actually design anything, but

[1:32:33] we've we've set up some some provocations for you all. And I I hope that this sets up a productive

[1:32:39] discussion. Um with that I'll conclude and let you all talk.

[1:32:47] Um Alex.

[1:32:49] Yeah. Uh thank you for that. I um actually my thought process was going down similar ways about some of the

[1:32:56] dilemmas of the first set of images or designs you presented which was landscape artscape and this whole

[1:33:03] conversation we had about well what if we change it and we're stuck right or how do we do this without knowing what the future stands and when might the

[1:33:10] future happen right and and I was thinking that a sculpture indeed will give us more flexibility and a sculpture

[1:33:18] as you pointed out can come in many different shapes and sizes and have all kinds of meetings and and things like that and and so I I looked up the what

[1:33:27] Wakaaw did and they did two different places and you're very familiar with that but one was big and kind of similar to uh well not similar but the whole

[1:33:35] concept is a park and bigger and then they had one at the site and I don't know if my colleagues have seen the Wakau one but you know it is a

[1:33:42] sculpture you know and it looks like this right you know and

[1:33:50] So, you know, I'm not saying this is the art form, but the kind, you know, it stands there and there's many pictures of people walking by and driving and

[1:33:57] parking. It's almost like it becomes part of the urban landscape. And what it doesn't convey for those that don't want to see it or think about it, you can you

[1:34:06] can just internalize it and give it whatever meaning you want.

[1:34:09] Uh, and then for those that really want the place to remember the lost the loved one that they lost, right there, it's there they are and they give it that

[1:34:16] meaning. And um and the other thing that I really liked about what you said um which really resonated was

[1:34:25] if if the rose garden is the more you know the loss and meditation and

[1:34:32] this and this is the day you know the people that we lost there Clinton was important to them.

[1:34:38] It was meaningful is where they had life and they would show up for ice cream or the Dairy Queen or the parade. I mean they were at the parade for God's sake, right? They were like this is they live

[1:34:47] a full life. So why not have a statue or sculpture that that symbolizes the

[1:34:55] vibrancy that they experienced over all those years, right? And and uh and I think that's a wonderful and and for

[1:35:03] those that are concerned about, you know, inducing some trauma for them because it's about something tragic that

[1:35:11] happened. But if we flip it and say that before the tragedy, those individuals had full lives in

[1:35:19] Highland Park and that's what we remember about them. And that was the spot where they went for that. Mhm.

[1:35:25] So, so I I like that concept that we can create a different message and the sculpture can be whatever and we can

[1:35:34] move it as needed or replace it or design around it much more easily for whatever, you know, future we don't quite yet.

[1:35:42] Um, I want to complicate that and say I'd like it to have a water feature. And I'm not kidding. I think that's a way to tie into that very important piece in

[1:35:51] the rose garden. um have it be a sculptural fountain. And I know we previously had a huge built fountain

[1:35:59] that caused all kinds of problems, but I think there's a way to have a beautiful remembrance. Yeah.

[1:36:05] And have that sense of of artism and then also the flowing of water during the very time when the tragedy occurred.

[1:36:16] Yeah. And the final point I would make to that point that you're making a connection to the the rose garden as well with the water. So whatever we ask

[1:36:23] the sculptor to do to and with your you know help and all that that it have other elements that can be tied back to the rose garden too whatever that may be

[1:36:32] not just the water but other aspects John um yeah I mean I think you're threading

[1:36:40] a very challenging needle right between those who want something visible prominent and those who don't and

[1:36:48] appreciate the thoughtfulness this and taking a step back and trying to create

[1:36:55] a solution that appeases everybody as much as possible and hearing the commentary from

[1:37:03] um a few of us from the last meeting around the future for Clinton. So, I know you're you're you're facing a lot of uh intersecting

[1:37:12] thoughts and priorities and so uh

[1:37:18] impressive route you took or you know to to get to where we are.

[1:37:24] It's almost like they do this for I know. [laughter] So, appreciate appreciate this a lot. I think in concept it makes a ton of sense and and um checks a lot of boxes.

[1:37:36] Um, my only concern would be just from a design perspective. I heard you say, you know, the Portland Clinton of today and

[1:37:43] the Portland of tomorrow. As we think about this, I I still believe we need a parallel path and think about what the

[1:37:52] Portland of tomorrow looks like. Um, right. I think many of us envision

[1:37:59] a place that has some greenery, whether that's real grass or artificial grass like we did at West Ridge, that allows

[1:38:07] for lawn games and families getting together and that something that looks a little little less urban than it does today and more more softscape than just

[1:38:16] hardscape. Um and so the design of the sculpture potentially needs to coexist

[1:38:22] with what the park tomorrow is. Um and [snorts] so my ask of this group is

[1:38:30] for us just to continue thinking about those two things in parallel and understand what can be done you know

[1:38:37] for X budget not we don't need to necessarily make this a let's put the place members not necessarily talking

[1:38:44] about a 10 or 15 or $20 million investment in Clinton but what does two or$5 million do to make it how can we aesthetically refresh

[1:38:52] you got it and increase its utility and tie into what we're trying to design.

[1:38:58] Um I'll just remind this group that we took this project to the mayor's institute for city design that's provided by the US Conference of Mayors

[1:39:06] and had the input of planners and professionals and landscape architects and they basically said this is a salute

[1:39:14] to the 1980s and that the colors are part of the issue. And so there are, I think, things that we can do across the

[1:39:22] spectrum, no pun intended, that would refresh both in terms of materials, in terms of plantings, in terms of

[1:39:30] Barissa's, you know, think of the children approach and and John's as well. So, um, I appreciate what you're

[1:39:37] saying with I'm sorry, Liz, did you want to say something?

[1:39:40] Sorry. It's just, you know, it took over a year, year and a half for the city to do a sensory friendly event

[1:39:49] during one of the larger events at Port Clinton that my daughter could attend after I made this comment to multiple people. We talk about wanting to use the

[1:39:57] space and make it family friendly except there is no consideration for the families who maybe can go there and I

[1:40:04] can go I can take her to Dairy Queen and we can be okay but I can't go to a tree lighting and so you're telling me

[1:40:11] that my daughter can't go and participate and see Santa and see Hanukkah and do all of those things because it's where it's being helped

[1:40:19] when there's a simple solution which Jasmine I want to give her so much started because she did a fabulous job

[1:40:27] of finally listening and setting up something at the fire station that was sensory friendly prior to it and doing

[1:40:34] all those things. So that's just my point here is while you think about this and while it's intentional, it's important to also consider if we're going to think about it in a

[1:40:42] traumaformed manner that people approach it in all different types of ways. Right.

[1:40:47] And that's the part that it's just been devastating.

[1:40:52] Right. We can't not participate. You have people who are some of the most vulnerable members of the community who can't do those things. And we've tried.

[1:41:04] We've gone. She's had a breakdown. I've had breakdowns, you know? I mean, I don't know who I talked to. Like, I mean, even basic things like when when

[1:41:12] the when the furniture was switched out and there's the new bike bike bike holders. one of the bite pieces right in the spot where I was shot and where I was laying on the ground bleeding.

[1:41:23] So, you know, those types of things a lot. I will just this whole concept here just FYI, but just generally while we're thinking about it, [clears throat] be deliberate those sort of things.

[1:41:34] It's just so frustrating. Every time we try to do something, it's just like there's no alternative. There's no thought and it's just breaks my heart.

[1:41:42] Breaks all of our hearts. I so value your input and your willingness to be here today because I know how hard this is and thank you.

[1:41:50] Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. Sorry.

[1:41:52] I just get very wound up [laughter] and we're getting and

[1:42:00] sorry we're getting very close and so now my emotions just kind of start you and I always cry together and I appreciate you being

[1:42:08] [snorts]

[1:42:08] Thanks. Thanks. Annette.

[1:42:12] Yeah. [laughter] Sorry. Forget the hard follow. I mean, oh my god. Um,

[1:42:18] you know, in some ways based on what you've said and what I think we're all feeling or whatever, in many ways, I thought it was time to take a step back.

[1:42:29] in the same way that um because from a good governance point of view I was hoping that when we do

[1:42:36] something that we don't have to undo and that we don't ignore but I also want to

[1:42:46] make sure that we are being properly respectful because it's been a long time right and that's literally what I said

[1:42:53] last time was how much longer do people need to be waiting it so it it's it's a balancing act on all of this and I think by moving forward

[1:43:01] with the rose garden, we're really doing it well. Um, I think in terms of long-term planning, what I like I love

[1:43:08] the trees, okay, when you came to us last time, I thought it was a beautiful idea.

[1:43:14] But frankly, in talking to some of the people, a lot of them felt like it wasn't any different from what we've got. And how are people going to know?

[1:43:21] But I think there was one thing and and frankly council member Tapio showed me a different monument or sculpture

[1:43:29] and it was a sculpture of a tree and one of the things at Highland Park Hospital. Yeah.

[1:43:36] The thing that I loved about that is again by pulling this back up on this

[1:43:42] area, we're not going to overly weigh down anything that we're going to do in the future. we maybe can

[1:43:50] have the lightness and balance that those that don't want too much

[1:43:57] uh can deal with. But those that want a monument, a memory, and that's why we decided this was a smaller right rendering of whatever it is we're to do.

[1:44:09] And maybe we wait on water, mayor, because both of cost and we don't know what we're doing. [clears throat] But

[1:44:17] maybe one of the ways to move along is to have a sculpture already in mind or

[1:44:24] begin working on it that we can already remember and place so people can reflect

[1:44:32] if it's easily integrated into the future of whatever it is we do for grant.

[1:44:39] Right? But otherwise, I would not be in favor of moving forward other than taking in a lot of this stuff right now.

[1:44:47] I just don't want to wait 10 or 15 years, which realistically, and it has nothing to do with the memorial. It has to do with the reality of the governance in the city, and that's not a bad thing.

[1:44:58] That's that is comprehensive, and that's how we should be. Um, but I really love

[1:45:04] the idea of a sculpture, you know, that and a tree to me [cough and clears throat] because it would be a sculpture and not, you know, seven heartscapes all over the place.

[1:45:15] Sorry.

[1:45:16] That will then impact whatever it is we do. Um, and and not necessarily positively. And I don't want to be disrespectful to the sculpture that we end up with either, right?

[1:45:27] So, anyhow, that's where I come out. I I'm really grateful. I think you have really done something that perhaps many

[1:45:34] of us can be happy with down the line at least in concept.

[1:45:39] Yi, thank you. Um I also uh really like the idea of a sculpture and the movability

[1:45:47] of it. Um um being able to uh move it when we not if when

[1:45:55] we redesign uh Port Clinton Square. Uh, and I I would like to see, you know, an overall reimagining of Portland Square.

[1:46:05] And I I uh I think this is an opportunity um that the you know, the

[1:46:13] remembrance project sort of triggered in a way um and that we shouldn't let it go. And I I like the idea of uh parallel

[1:46:22] tracks. Um throwing in there that I funnily enough, I was thinking of an abstracted tree as well over the weekend, but I'm open to all ideas. Uh

[1:46:31] honestly, uh and I did want to say to I think I guess her name is Liz. Uh, I so appreciated what you said and it's interesting to note that I was talking

[1:46:40] this weekend to a a friend of mine's daughter who worked on the Obama Center design and really fought for uh sensory and in inclusion around differently aabled visitors.

[1:46:50] Um, and and and so that is really in my mind as well. Um, and I do wonder if we,

[1:46:57] you know, hire an artist or have a design competition. Um, uh, you know, design competition for a piece of

[1:47:04] sculpture. Uh, I, um, with regards to the water feature at both sites, I think it is nice to have one in the public

[1:47:12] square, the heart of our city. Um, I'm open to that, but cost is clearly an issue. We have to figure that one out.

[1:47:19] Um, and I I I wondered to the the slide where you had uh Yokoono's um uh skying.

[1:47:28] I just uh had to Yeah, that one. The skylanding is in the right hand middle.

[1:47:33] Um those leaves, but to the right of that, is that the sculpture by Ellen Zimmerman? I think it is. I know that.

[1:47:41] You just you just if Olivia were here, she'd be able to answer.

[1:47:45] Okay. Um, it's a it's a public art expert.

[1:47:49] Ellen Zimmerman is uh one of New York City, New York's top um public artist and uh is actually a a

[1:47:58] throw in there that she's a friend, a family friend from long ago who I interviewed for my college thesis on public art. But so to see that there was

[1:48:06] rather striking. Um, and I to the point of uh the Yokoono's piece in that uh the flower petals.

[1:48:16] Yeah, the uh the lotus pal pet pedals.

[1:48:18] Um uh and I know I've mentioned before that she took one of the petals and she put it at the art institute and she used

[1:48:25] the Japanese kinsugi approach of broken broken pieces mended uh mended together.

[1:48:32] And the idea of it is that when you see you see the joints, the mended joints and that the mended piece is stronger

[1:48:39] than the original piece. Um that's the idea behind kinsuyu that the the mended end result is stronger than the

[1:48:47] original. Uh and that that concept seems like an appealing one to me that we may

[1:48:54] or may not uh utilize. But uh regardless, I I like the idea of public art [clears throat] and I also think

[1:49:02] that it's crucial that we consider I know we're about to undertake a comprehensive plan that in in any event that the Portland Square be addressed.

[1:49:13] Um so those are my comments. Thank you.

[1:49:15] Go ahead. You um [clears throat] so just two things. So again, the recommendation um for today is to pursue a sculpture

[1:49:23] that could eventually be part of a redevelopment of Fort Clinton. Um so I just want to make sure that's clear. The process that we would undertake as part

[1:49:31] of that would be very similar if you recall what we did for the SESA Centennial. So we would do a request for proposals. Anyone can submit a proposal.

[1:49:40] It we evaluate it. we'd have specific criteria that we need them to meet and then we evaluate the various responses

[1:49:48] as part of that process and then move forward accordingly. So that's that.

[1:49:52] I've heard two comments right now though of you'd like to see that as part of redevelopment of Fort Clinton [clears throat] and I understand that

[1:49:59] but I guess I just as we take a look at our planning process that's not built into right now our planning process not from a cost perspective in our budget.

[1:50:11] So, if that's something that you want to do, I guess I just want to know if that's true, that is going to put our current capital plan at risk for just

[1:50:18] getting what we need done this year. And it's not currently in the plan for next year, but we were going to put together as part of the budget process a plan for when we could do that.

[1:50:29] So, we have two people that haven't been heard from and we have to leave at 6:30 for the neighborhood meeting.

[1:50:35] Um, so I want to hear from Tony and Barissa. So, uh, just briefly, um, thank you very much for hearing everybody and

[1:50:43] going back to the drawing board and really starting from scratch. Um, I I don't have an answer for exactly what I

[1:50:50] want to see there, but the location I think is appropriate. Um, and

[1:50:58] it's a good location because we need to have a memorial. We need to recognize this as the place where this happened.

[1:51:05] And it can be done in a way where people who are troubled by it, I think, have the opportunity to avoid it, but to be

[1:51:12] there for uh those of us that want to have a place to go to remember it there.

[1:51:19] Um it's a difficult and complicated process, but we have an open opportunity to get a lot of different approaches uh

[1:51:27] that I think uh one of which will likely be one that works. Um

[1:51:36] because I'm comfortable with this location, I am not interested in waiting for a complete redevelopment plan for

[1:51:43] Port Clinton. I think this is enough towards the perimeter that we can do whatever we need to do to redevelop the

[1:51:50] plaza and incorporate this into whatever changes we make in the plaza um without

[1:51:59] having to significantly move it or alter it. So, I I think it's important to to move forward with this if we can.

[1:52:08] Uh I [clears throat] agree with what creatively what everything everyone said. I like the sculpture idea. Um I

[1:52:16] like the location. My only, you know, I'm just looking at this from just a mom standpoint. Um I think about the kids in the summer running up and down over

[1:52:23] there by Dairy Queen. I just don't want this, you know, to be disrespected in any way. So, just please take that into

[1:52:30] consideration. And um in terms of location um especially having two young boys um and in terms of then

[1:52:38] redevelopment I think we should move ahead with you know if we have to um move that up in our priorities to start planning the redevelopment of Portington

[1:52:47] as well whenever that fits in but I think that's extremely important as well I just want to add my voice I think we

[1:52:54] need to move up the redevelopment of Clinton well like to 26 that's what I'm trying to think is are you want to offset I think we need I

[1:53:02] think we need a separate meeting to talk about the reform put it on the table. I just I don't want to let it go by that. Oh, it's not We're moving it from the table.

[1:53:11] I just want to put my voice from the table. I appreciate that you're saying that, but out of respect to the people who are here and the purpose of this

[1:53:19] meeting, let's have that thoughtful conversation at a different time. Thank you for hearing what I'm [snorts] saying. But can we just have that

[1:53:27] conversation about I think that conversation forward.

[1:53:35] Yeah, sounds good.

[1:53:37] [laughter]

[1:53:38] Thank you.

[1:53:39] Anything else on this issue of Port Clinton and where we want to discuss. It sounds like everyone's had

[1:53:47] their opportunity to put their point out there. Okay.

[1:53:52] You know what you mean. So in terms of next steps, Ben, yeah. Uh this is this is really productive for us as always. Thank you.

[1:54:00] Thank you all for your um thorough and rich input. Um so our next step is kind

[1:54:07] of developing a a schematic design package. taking essentially all the work that we've done to kind of communicate

[1:54:16] to you all and making it something that communicates to the construction manager when they're hired what all the materials are, what the actual

[1:54:24] dimensions of the space are at a schematic level so that that they can start putting um you know more precise

[1:54:31] uh dollars and cents to this. Um and of course the uh the presentation to the Historic Preservation Commission in a

[1:54:39] couple weeks here. Um so we'll be we'll be back for that. Um and then moving forward we'll be kind of diving into the

[1:54:46] details on the rose garden certainly and kind of just tracking with you all in parallel how you want to proceed with um

[1:54:55] and how how we can support a process for for getting a sculpture and a public art process developed for for Portland.

[1:55:04] Sounds good. All right. With that I call for a motion to adjurnn. So move. Second. All in favor say I.

[1:55:11] I. Thank you.